So it seems that there is not much out there for these. Some say not to buy old stock, some cringe at the sound of MIKES XS. Well that leaves me lost. Not sure what to do. Is the guide made out of Teflon ?? If not does anyone know what it is made from ??/ I have a boat load of Teflon, have the resources, ability to make the guide up.. Just curious, I need a guide like now, the bike sounds like a diesel, it starting to leak oil from the bolt holes that hold the guide in.. It is ready lol..
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anybody know what the front cam chain guide is made from ?/ Gona maybe make one.
- Thread starter RatyXS
- Start date
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
There are specific extrusions of plastic materials out there made to be chain guides running in oil and in the temp range (up to 350 degrees should do fine) I asked a good long time ago for someone to send me an old one at thier cost so I could look into it but nobody ever replied.
The part number never changed throughout the production run. Now whether or not the one you're looking at is N.O.S. or newly manufactured I guess would depend on the shop you're dealing with. Some little hole-in-the-wall, off-the-beaten-path shop may still have some of these laying on the shelf from the '70s and '80s. A big place like I've linked to below would most likely be selling newly manufactured ones. Yes, they are still available from Yamaha .....
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-256-12231-01-00.html
http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-256-12231-01-00.html
The early XS1-XS1B, up to who knows when, used the P/N# 256-12231-00-00. This early front guide had a flat surface, not bowed, without the channel shape. It was superceded to the current bowed/channel style, who-knows-when. Pics of the two styles are in my album:
http://www.xs650.com/media/albums/1640/
One of the real serious issues with these is separation/delamination of the bond to the aluminum backing. 5Twins has some good pics of this separation, and on close inspection, sure 'nuff, I found it occurring on my early version as well. Started researching bonding agents for aluminum, and found many disappointing reports.
There's some good aluminum bonding agents in the aircraft industry, but I only used one of those (very expensive, but not rated for heat/oil environment), and forgot what it was. It was the replacement for the failed 'purple passion' bonding agent used in the construction of early Jim Bede designed AA-1's and AA-5's.
With the recent advent of the new semi-aluminum Ford F-150, there's been a lot of buzz about the new bonding agents used for the tricky aluminum to steel joints. Haven't seen any of that buzz covering this aluminum/plastic bonding issue though.
In the mid '70s, we had a major recall of the camchain tensioners on the first models of the Honda CB-360. The original black-plastic bow type rear tensioner (very similar design to the later XS-650 rear tensioner) had a problem with excessive wear and maintaining tension (the bow shape). The replacement tensioners were made from a different material. Replaced dozens of those tensioners. The new ones looked identical to the old ones, and you had to be careful to not mix them up. Never found out what the materials were.
The takeaway from this is: Unless you have good insider info on this design, you could easily choose a material that may not hold up...
http://www.xs650.com/media/albums/1640/
One of the real serious issues with these is separation/delamination of the bond to the aluminum backing. 5Twins has some good pics of this separation, and on close inspection, sure 'nuff, I found it occurring on my early version as well. Started researching bonding agents for aluminum, and found many disappointing reports.
There's some good aluminum bonding agents in the aircraft industry, but I only used one of those (very expensive, but not rated for heat/oil environment), and forgot what it was. It was the replacement for the failed 'purple passion' bonding agent used in the construction of early Jim Bede designed AA-1's and AA-5's.
With the recent advent of the new semi-aluminum Ford F-150, there's been a lot of buzz about the new bonding agents used for the tricky aluminum to steel joints. Haven't seen any of that buzz covering this aluminum/plastic bonding issue though.
In the mid '70s, we had a major recall of the camchain tensioners on the first models of the Honda CB-360. The original black-plastic bow type rear tensioner (very similar design to the later XS-650 rear tensioner) had a problem with excessive wear and maintaining tension (the bow shape). The replacement tensioners were made from a different material. Replaced dozens of those tensioners. The new ones looked identical to the old ones, and you had to be careful to not mix them up. Never found out what the materials were.
The takeaway from this is: Unless you have good insider info on this design, you could easily choose a material that may not hold up...
scabber
XS650 Guru
Like 5twins said Yamaha reissued boats.net. new stock. I bought one almost $72 shipped. Worth it for quality. The liner doesn't look like it was glued. Looks like the liner was molded as a liquid to the guide some way.
CDNTX650
XS650 Guru
Welp, i couldnt find one at the time, so i pulled mine apart, cleaned it with a dremel on the aluminum and the plastic piece. Then i scored the living shit out of both of them using a cross hatch pattern. Jb weld and my vise to hold it together. Seems like shes on there, tried with all my might to seperate it again. No dice. Ill be your test bed. Engine gets swapped in thos winter. Luckily, if it doesnt work...my stock engine is fine....back it goes then.
plus what ever Yamaha still has them made to fulfill parts orders have not heard of a single failure of a new Yamaha guide. About two years ago all the OEM yamaha vendors were out of stock, then Yamaha got new ones back in stock so any OEM guide purchased now is of recent manufacture. I will take a guess that the the newly made parts have the benefit of the latest technology in their construction. The originals had 30-40 years for the bond to degrade. Anyone worried about how their guide will be doing 25 years from now?
Results from the MikesXS guides uh not as fool proof.
My personal decision; any engine I build will have a new OEM guide installed.
toomany; does the new style guide retrofit to the early engines?
Results from the MikesXS guides uh not as fool proof.
My personal decision; any engine I build will have a new OEM guide installed.
toomany; does the new style guide retrofit to the early engines?
New manufacture or brought out of storage from a warehouse in Japan due to supplier outage?
The revised parts fiche shows that these older bikes use the new guide, my comparison in my album shows that it'll fit. The new version's screw mount base is smaller/different than mine, but should work fine, just needs the screwholes fixed. And, having that channel means that centering it is important now.
I haven't installed the new one yet. Installing the camchain was tight enuff using the original flat guide, but this new bowed version will make that even tighter. Maybe I've had it easy all this time, and will be catching up to the rest of you.
Well it's just a guess but the guide I got and it's packaging LOOKED brand new not like 30 year old NOS. The guide was out of stock system wide for a period of months. I would think Yamaha has a parts system in place that ID's part #s with good turnover, and if there is a supplier that is still capable of making the parts, reorders them.
Sorry for the hijack, but just for reference here's some parts manual pages that show this early front guide a little better:
From an original 70-72 parts manual, front guide #27 was changed at engine # 018608
From an original 70-73 parts manual, front guide #27 was changed at engine # 0186xx
From a revised 70-73 parts manual, front guide #27 shown as the -01 variant for early and later.
(But shows a ~608 note)
Not shown: The boats.net website shows the -01 variant for the 1970 XS1 and 1971 XS1B.
My 'apart' bike (the Dragon) is an early XS1B, before engine #018608, and has the early tensioner system.
My current runner 'parts bike' (the Green Slug) is a later XS1B, engine #02xxxx, and has the later 6-hole rear tensioner, mounted to a 4-hole cylinder.
Haven't cracked it open yet to see what else is in there, but suspect it has those later XS2 parts...
From an original 70-72 parts manual, front guide #27 was changed at engine # 018608
From an original 70-73 parts manual, front guide #27 was changed at engine # 0186xx
From a revised 70-73 parts manual, front guide #27 shown as the -01 variant for early and later.
(But shows a ~608 note)
Not shown: The boats.net website shows the -01 variant for the 1970 XS1 and 1971 XS1B.
My 'apart' bike (the Dragon) is an early XS1B, before engine #018608, and has the early tensioner system.
My current runner 'parts bike' (the Green Slug) is a later XS1B, engine #02xxxx, and has the later 6-hole rear tensioner, mounted to a 4-hole cylinder.
Haven't cracked it open yet to see what else is in there, but suspect it has those later XS2 parts...
Brian902
XS650 Junkie
These two side views show Yamaha's redesign of the front guide, and rear tensioner:
This "bowed guide on the tension side" concept appears to be the design-of-choice on the superquadro.
Yes, this does seem to challenge this old man's thoughts on chain routing, but engine designers must have a reason for this.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/619/1...i-1199-Panigale-Superquadro-Engine-Info-.aspx
This "bowed guide on the tension side" concept appears to be the design-of-choice on the superquadro.
Yes, this does seem to challenge this old man's thoughts on chain routing, but engine designers must have a reason for this.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/619/1...i-1199-Panigale-Superquadro-Engine-Info-.aspx
MY take is with the constant loading / unloading a cam chain gets, the curved guides reduce chain slap action which has to be hard on chain life and add vibration.
My take is with the constant loading / unloading a cam chain gets, the curved guides reduce chain slap action which has to be hard on chain life and add vibration.
Makes perfect sense to me. Managing the undulations of the cam load pulses.
Even more reason that polishing the link sideplate edges sounds like a good idea...
Brian902
XS650 Junkie
Perhaps this is like MrRiggs video of the valve spring dance, where with rpm the spring was rotating like a top.
Just thought that with a min of 600 rpm camshaft speed the chain would not get much time to bounce around.
Guess we need cam chain viewer to see that dance.
Yamaha is not that stupid so I'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt. ha ha ha
Just thought that with a min of 600 rpm camshaft speed the chain would not get much time to bounce around.
Guess we need cam chain viewer to see that dance.
Yamaha is not that stupid so I'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt. ha ha ha
