XS650 Electric Start System

Great thread. I just bought a 1973 TX650 and the electric start is useless, barely sounds like the solenoid is sending current to the starter motor, and if it spins, only just. I'm going to try a new battery that sends more amps but other than that, I think I'll just be avoiding the electric start? Seems like a lot of headaches and the rebuilds mentioned in this thread are way above my capabilities.

Sounds like these issues are pretty common?
 
What happens if you replace that clip thing in the old position where it looks like ought go to rather than in the new position that looks like a mistake?
Because there were problems, Yamaha redesigned the spring clip. I'm thinking they changed the diameter of the wire that the clip is made from, and as a result it does not fit into the original location. By placing it off to the side the newer design clip can do its job better.
If your bike is later year, I suspect it has the redesigned clip, and likely will not fit into the cavity of the original location.
I would just do what the Yamaha Tech Bulletin says to do.........................they know best.
 
Agreed. As I have pointed out before: factory engineers may not be perfect, but they ain't stupid and they invariably try to make the best possible products. If they have to make a revision (like the 4th gear starter springy-thingy for instance) to solve a problem in the field - they will likely have done a fair bit of testing to ensure that they don't have to do it AGAIN. So....I would recommend following their advice on service bulletin type stuff.

There is actually a video on UTube showing "how to fix the Yamaha 650 starter spring" - and the author puts the spring back into that little cavity in the casting - I would suggest NOT following that advice.

Pete
 
It's almost stupid how often the 40 year old electrics work just fine on these bikes! Often as not a bit of connection clean up and wire checking has these back in action. Many many barn finds have come to life with little more than a fresh battery and some clean up.
 
Indeed, that is true - but when the sh!t hits the fan (or is stuck all over the bike....) - there's nothing like the forum for getting it running.

Happy New Year all!

Pete
 
The XS650 engine was originally designed with no starter motor. When they decided to add a starter motor, it must have been a real challenge for the engineers. The result is quite complex mechanically, but the amazing thing is that it works really well. I have had my bike for 10 years now, and I always use the starter motor to start the engine. In those many starts over the 10 years, it has always worked 100%. IMHO its a superb design and very high quality.

When I see the posts where lads whine and complain that the electric start system is a big problem for them, I just shake my head in disbelief. Then they say they are going to remove it and all of its gears/shafts , etc. ..............................I just cringe!
 
Can't disagree RtdGent - once I got the starter safety relay issue fixed, the system has worked fine for me - albeit with some dramatic noises here and there - but that's just part of the charm of riding a 40 year old bike.

One thing is for sure: some of my Brit-bike buddies may look down their noses at me - but they all look a bit green when they're kicking (and dripping fuel) and I can simply hit button and go....;)

Pete
 
Well Pete, I hear about these noises that other lads have had from their starters, but I have never heard anything out of the ordinary from my starter. Maybe I have just been lucky.
Yes, electrical components like the Safety Relay, electrical connectors, etc., need a little maintenance after the many years have gone by.

For sure....................I'll take my XS650 over any British bikes from that same time period.
 
Having recently 'finished' the first of two builds I have cooking...problem. It purrs like a kitten, my neighbor who rides a Harley said it doesn't vibrate at all. I just smiled. Clutch action is great, no funny noises, and there shouldn't be because it has new valves, guides, pistons, rings, overbore, camchain, oil filters, clutch plates, a complete overhaul, twenty years ago. Then I filled it with oil, stopped up all the int. exh. breather holes and then wrapped it up in cellophane. Totally cocooned until this past year when I built the bike from spare parts. Now it is all together except the starter will not engage. I can hear the motor spinning and gears meshing, but it does not reach the engine. Before I get it on the operating table I need a plan. I am thinking that it is that hairpin clip thing that will not let the starter gear slide over to engagement position, but why? Maybe it is stuck in that cavity no longer used? Hell if I know, that was twenty years ago! But other than that what else could be the causative factor? A build up of gum or varnish? Worn teeth?
I am not enthusiastic about performing exploratory surgery, but it does appear I will have to lift the clutch side case cover and likely clutch as well to access the ailing mechanism.
 
Hmmmmm....I have to admit that I've never been inside the clutch cover, but there are several videos on it and it doesn't look bad.

I'll bet it is just a bit of gummy old oil on the shaft holding that #4 gear from engaging. Once you get in there and give it a squirt of WD or something like that, it will probably work just fine. I certainly doubt that anything is worn. If it worked before you put the bike away - it should still be ok now.

Hey: here's a thought. Can you kick start the bike? Once it's running and warmed up - the oil should thin-out and perhaps that Darn old gear will function again without a teardown.

Pete
 
Spockwerks;
Read all of this thread and all of your questions will be answered:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/starter-gear-fix.18060/

Like I said before, the starter system is a well designed system, but the wish bone clip or drag clip does lose its proper tension as the years go by. It seems to need about 6 lbs of drag, as well explained in the linked thread.
I keep fearing that my drag clip will weaken and my starter will stop engaging, but so far mine has worked flawlessly.
 
As the drag clip gets weaker, the starter will start grinding occasionally instead of engaging. The clip slows the #4 gear's rotation so it can properly and easily engage with the gear on the crank. If the clip is weak and not slowing the gear down enough, it just grinds against the side of the crank gear instead of meshing into it. I've re-tensioned my drag clip twice now in the 10 years or so I've had my bike. I figure it's kinda going to be something that I need to do every 5 or 6 years.

For your problem, you mention no grinding. That could indicate that the #4 gear assembly isn't getting spun at all. I would start at the beginning of the starter spin delivery path, under that cover that sits below the countershaft sprocket. There's a couple little gears in there that tie the starter motor to the cross shaft through the motor. That transfers the "spin" over to the #4 gear assembly and to the crank. Maybe you left those gears out?
 
Hmmmmm....I have to admit that I've never been inside the clutch cover, but there are several videos on it and it doesn't look bad.

I'll bet it is just a bit of gummy old oil on the shaft holding that #4 gear from engaging. Once you get in there and give it a squirt of WD or something like that, it will probably work just fine. I certainly doubt that anything is worn. If it worked before you put the bike away - it should still be ok now.

Hey: here's a thought. Can you kick start the bike? Once it's running and warmed up - the oil should thin-out and perhaps that Darn old gear will function again without a teardown.

Pete

Oh I wish that was the case, maybe after a few miles of riding with a little heat expansion and fresh oil circulation it could cure itself. That means waiting til spring, and that will happen anyway.
 
Spockwerks;
Read all of this thread and all of your questions will be answered:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/starter-gear-fix.18060/

Like I said before, the starter system is a well designed system, but the wish bone clip or drag clip does lose its proper tension as the years go by. It seems to need about 6 lbs of drag, as well explained in the linked thread.
I keep fearing that my drag clip will weaken and my starter will stop engaging, but so far mine has worked flawlessly.

Wow! Thank you for that informative link. This will be step 2 if warming it up and riding a while don't change anything. There is a clip of a guy putting the wishbone clip in upside down. Interesting how easy it is to spot the mistakes of others.
 
As the drag clip gets weaker, the starter will start grinding occasionally instead of engaging. The clip slows the #4 gear's rotation so it can properly and easily engage with the gear on the crank. If the clip is weak and not slowing the gear down enough, it just grinds against the side of the crank gear instead of meshing into it. I've re-tensioned my drag clip twice now in the 10 years or so I've had my bike. I figure it's kinda going to be something that I need to do every 5 or 6 years.

For your problem, you mention no grinding. That could indicate that the #4 gear assembly isn't getting spun at all. I would start at the beginning of the starter spin delivery path, under that cover that sits below the countershaft sprocket. There's a couple little gears in there that tie the starter motor to the cross shaft through the motor. That transfers the "spin" over to the #4 gear assembly and to the crank. Maybe you left those gears out?

When the starter spins I can hear the gears meshing, so this solution seems less likely but not impossible. With the clutch out and watching the gears as I press the starter button-NOTHING spins, then I'll know you must be right. That would be step three come weather warm enough to do all this. Thanks
 
While I remember rebuilding engines in an unheated chicken coop all winter long, riding all winter rain and snow, those days are long gone. Not to be forgotten nor relived. When my new forced air space heater arrives, and if it really does warm up that garage some, then maybe I can do something about the intrigue. E.A.T. is 1-9-09 or so.:shrug:
 
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