Charging troubleshooting, slip ring resistance.

poorman9

poorman9

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I've been making my way through Curly's troubleshooting guide trying to figure out why my battery keeps dying.

When the bikes idling or revving, I never get any voltage going back to the battery, it just sits around 12 volts.

Step 1. Battery is charged.

Step 2. No magnetic field.

Step 3. Regulator pasted the test. Battery terminal charge voltage doesn't change.

Step 4. Full voltage to the positive brush

Step 5. Well this picture pretty much explains it (1.3 ohms between the rings)

IMG_8345_dead.jpg


I don't get anywhere near 5 ohms between the slip rings, and I don't get infinity on between a ring and the engine. And these reading are taken with the key on.

Anything else I should try before I start thinking about replacing my generator?

The longest I've riden the bike without it dying is probably 20 to 30 minutes, but that was with the headlight off.
 
That pretty well answers it 1.3 means the insulation in the rotor wiring has broken down the the coils are shorting internally. New or rewound rotor or a PMA conversion for you bucko. On an auto ranging vom like yours "infinity" is rare, you may get some very high Ohms reading which is as good as infinity, but it's also possible that you have a rotor wire shorted to ground somewhere. Just to be on the safe side before deciding what to buy open the connector for the stator and disconnect the separate yellow wire near by also. Measure between any two whites, you should be somewhere around .5 ohm. Check all three against each other, and they should also be "infinity" to the engine case.
 
From what I am told, the varnish on these rotors deteriorates and any contact with them can cause them to fall off. soda blasting, washing. soaking, scrubbing ....

once they fall off, your rotor will short which cuts the coil count, lowers the magnetic field and reduces the total power output.

The part you're looking at is the rotor, and requires a special tool to remove intact.
 
In this case, key didn't matter, because you had the brushes off, but never try to measure resistance (ohms) in a live circuit. That can quickly kill a meter and will give no useful information.
 
gggGary said:
Just to be on the safe side before deciding what to buy open the connector for the stator and disconnect the separate yellow wire near by also. Measure between any two whites, you should be somewhere around .5 ohm. Check all three against each other, and they should also be "infinity" to the engine case.
Click to expand...

I'll do this final check tonight, thanks a lot!

sgallaty said:
The part you're looking at is the rotor, and requires a special tool to remove intact.
Click to expand...


So it's the part on the right that I'll most likely be replacing? The coiled wire is the rotor? Could I also likely have a problem with my stator?

IMG_8339.jpg


Or if I go with this PMA conversion, then I'd be replacing the whole thing it looks like.

As of right now, I don't care if I end up with a nice new PM alternator, I'd really like to just get it running while the summer sun is still shining. I've got really good bike junkyard down the road with shelfs full of generators/alternators. If I did go Permanent Magnet is there a list of alternators that are most compatible? Or what would be my easiest fix?


gggGary said:
In this case, key didn't matter, because you had the brushes off, but never try to measure resistance (ohms) in a live circuit. That can quickly kill a meter and will give no useful information.
Click to expand...

Well now that I think about it that makes sense :doh:
 
Ah I think I found the list of bikes with compatible stators I'd seen somewhere -

Honda CBR600 F1 86-90
Honda VF500 84-85
Kawasaki VN800 Vulcan 00-05
Kawasaki VN800 Classic 01-06
Kawasaki VN800 Drifter 01-05
Kawasaki ZL600 86-87
Kawasaki ZX600, ZX-6 Ninja, ZZR600 85-04 [!!NOT ZX6-R, ZX6-RR 98+!!]
Suzuki VS800 92-07
Suzuki VX800 90-93
Suzuki VZ800 97-04
Suzuki LT250 91-96
Suzuki LT4WD 91-96
Suzuki LT-F4WD 91-98
Yamaha XV250 Route66 88-90
Yamaha XT600 90-95
Yamaha RZ350 (???)

There's a few more listed on this very helpful PDF.

Can anybody pick the easiest options from the list. Are there any of these that don't require a custom adapter bracket? Or is that I'd want to get a YFZ350 Stator Bracket??

Also, there's plenty of options for stators, but the only rotor that will works is a ’87 – ‘06 Yamaha Banshee (YFZ350)?:confused:

Basically I'm trying to get together a list of optional parts that I can take to the junkyard this weekend and get this over with.

Correct this if I'm wrong:
  • Rotor from a ’87 – ‘06 Yamaha Banshee (YFZ350)
  • Three-phase stator from any of the 15 bikes above
  • regulator/rectifier from any PMA bike
  • YFZ350 Banshee Stator Bracket (which I'll have to modify a bit)

In addition to those 4 things, am I also going to have to fabricate a mounting plate like this for some reason?
 
Last edited:
Just got back from the yard and within 5 minutes of looking I was able to find a dozen 18 poll, 103mm diameter stators. Only thing is, I have no idea what bikes these came off of.

IMG_1178.jpg



These are all 103mm OD, I know it's supposed to be - 103mm X 42mm X 20mm

what are the other two measurments? what the width supposed to be i guess I'm asking?
 
Looks like it was 42mm IN, and I don't know what the 20mm was, none of those pictured above were 20mm thick. Here's an afternoon's worth of driving around and buying shit -

newparts.jpg


How'd I do? That's an adjustable banshee stator timing plate. Three phase, 18 poll stator off a God knows what, it's 103mm OD and 43MM IN. And a rec/reg off a GL1000 (it's three phase cause it's only got three colors of wire coming out).
 
Poorman9, A rotor rotates, a stator is stationary. In your pic in post 5 the thing on the right is the stator, it is stationary when mounted. The item you are testing is the rotor, it rotates with the crank when mounted.
Looking at your pics I would guess your bike is an 80 or later. It has the magnet in the rotor that triggers the TCI box. If you are still using the TCI then to do the PMA conversion you will need to replace the TCI with an aftermarket ignition. The stock TCI won't work with the PMA.
Leo
 
I've got an 81 with a Boyer bluebox, which I've read works with the PMA conversion, right?

Stator, rotor, flywheel, alternator, magneto, generator...I'm still learning the names, thanks for the help.
 
Even though there are 7 wires coming off of it, there only 5 pins on the unit. So 3 yellows go to the stator, and green to ground, red to battery positive.
 
Hey guys, late night update. I got everything installed and the bike fired up. Test the battery at idle and it was getting around 14.5v, when I stared the rev it up, the voltage went up to 17v and I couldn't have been more than 3000rpm, so I shut it off. Any idea's?

The wiring's pretty simple, I don't think I could have messed it up.
 
I've been thinking this over, the only thing I can think is the rec/reg might not be working right. Is there any way to check this?
 
you added a solid state regulator, right? Is your electrical diagram still the way you originally described it?

Or more directly, what regulator and rectifier are you using now?

Yes, that was what I was going to post this morning but I was going to wait until I saw other people responding.

Also - with that banshee flywheel and points, it seems like you could go batteryless if you were kickstarting. Might be a bitch to kick cold, but it could work.
 
It's a rectifier off a GL1000 I think, it's got 7 wires - 3 yellow, 2 red and 2 green. Which means it's three phase, but I'm not sure if it's solid state. Here's a picture of it.

I've attached an updated wiring diagram.

Thanks

And yeah, batteryless is what I was thinking about. At this point I wanna just do what's easiest, so I can start riding. Would I have to do anything else beside replace the battery with a capacitor?
 

Attachments

  • XS650_81_DIAGRAM_KICKONLY_PMA_v6.pdf
    58.4 KB · Views: 239
Yes definitely solid state. Probably a big silicon controlled rectifier with an aluminum heatsink.

Do you know for sure what's in that thing? If it's a regulator only and not a rectifier that would make your readings make sense.

17-ish vac ~= 14v dc

Can't help you with that batteryless diagram. Capacitor is an interesting way to store potential.
 
Here's a quote about rectifiers from the install guide I was following.

The stock XS650 regulator/rectifier will not work with a permanent magnet alternator. Luckily, the majority of bikes made in the last three decades use a three phase permanent magnet alternator. That means there are more potential donors than I
can possibly list.

If you don't know what bike the reg/rec came from then you can still identify it by the wires
coming out of it. Count the number of different color wires coming out of the reg/rec.

- 3 Colors- The most basic reg/rec has five wires. Three input wires and two output
wires. The three input wires hook to the stator and will all be the same color. Like the
stator, these wires are usually white or yellow. The two output wires are positive and
negative. The positive wire is usually red and the negative wire is usually black or
green.
Click to expand...

In hugh's kit, the rec/reg he's selling look quite a bit like one of these cheap little models.

Here's another rec/reg somebody's using with PMA, it's just a standard three phase.
 

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