kick start trouble

dayv

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Hi. i just got a 79 650 that will not start. no electric start, just kick. i can kick start dirtbikes and my friends honda all day but i cannot get this bike started. the previous owner weighed about 300lbs, which is about 75 more than me and he would jump and do it no problem. no matter how hard i try i cannot get the bike to start. any suggestions? this is my first motorcycle so im pretty much clueless...
 
Maybe the seller had it warmed up when you came to look at it so he was showing you how easy it is to start once it's warm. Are you using the choke? Turn the choke all the way on, and don't give it any throttle. Kick it over a few times, then really give it a few good kicks.

Your not pulling in the clutch lever when you try to kick it over are you?

How well did it run when you went to buy it? Did it keep a steady idle? If you reved it, would the revs come back down to idle smoothly?
 
Make sure the GAS is turned On!! I about killed myself kickin mine chocked it, cursed it, broke out the battery charger,then finally realized I had the gas turned off!! :doh: :wtf: :D
 
hahah.. I've done that too with just about every stupid little thing possible on every machine I've owned.

For example (depending on the machine):
  • forget to turn the gas on
  • forget to make sure the key is on
  • forget to make sure the kill switch is in the right position
  • forget to make sure it's not in gear with the side stand down
  • to start some scooters you need to hold the brake.
All sorts of shit.

If a bike has been sitting for a while and it has vacuum petcocks, sometimes the gas will evaporate out of the bowls and you need to turn it on prime for a while to fill them up. Or maybe the prime doesn’t work and you just need to let it crank for awhile.

Now I usually always put clear in-line fuel filters on all my bikes so I can see if the carbs have gas. Once I know it has gas, then I just need to think spark. In my head I think, what will kill the spark? Depending on the bike it could a lot of stuff. First, I think key and kill switch, then safety relays. Some bikes have them for neutral, clutch and side stand. Might also need to think about a dead battery on a bike without a permanent magnet alternator.

So the process goes like this:

Gas? Check
Key? Check
Kill switch? Check
Whatever combo of side stand, neutral, and clutch positions I need for whatever bike? Check

Set choke, then try to start… if it doesn’t work, keep trying… no go… now what? Battery? Fuse? Bad relay? Fouled plugs?

About now is when I suspect a problem. Now I’ll really check for spark (with a tester or pull a plug). No spark? Bust out the multimeter. If I have spark then I suspect air and fuel. Dirty carbs? Clogged pilots? Carbs way out of sync? Vacuum leak? After I know it’s getting fuel and it still won’t start, now what? Timing somehow off? Depending on the ignition it could be a sheered key on the alternator, cam pick-up that moved, etc…

Work thought the steps. You need compression, air, fuel, spark, and timing to make an engine run. If you have an engine you know nothing about that won’t run, you’ll probably check compression first, then fuel and spark. If you know it was running a little while ago and didn’t blow up, you’re not going to start by checking the compression; you’ll start with the simple shit first like turning the gas and key on and playing with the choke. How did this write up get so long!!! :eek:
 
DAMN Travis!! that's an Awesome write up!! You should sticky this thread to To the technical section...there will be plenty more builders asking these questions... :thumbsup: :D
 
try kicking it like you would a big single bring it up to just past compression,you can feel this as you push the kickstart slowly, once you get just past compression,kick it pretty hard this will make it a lot easier to kick than just trying to kick it at any point in the engine cycle and normally lets the engine turn over a few more times.
 
DAMN Travis!! that's an Awesome write up!! You should sticky this thread to To the technical section...there will be plenty more builders asking these questions... :thumbsup: :D

Thanks. It could use some refining and be more complete if it were going to be a sticky. I'm still trying to figure out how to work the technical articles on this site. I'd like to have some kind of member contribution tech section like a wiki where the base article starts out as something like above and everyone adds to it and modifies it until it's a decent article. Probably going to wait until Vb 4.0 for that though. More on this idea later. For now, the forum is small enough that people can still use the search feature and easily find what they're looking for.

try kicking it like you would a big single bring it up to just past compression,you can feel this as you push the kickstart slowly, once you get just past compression,kick it pretty hard this will make it a lot easier to kick than just trying to kick it at any point in the engine cycle and normally lets the engine turn over a few more times.

That's a good tip Jay. That's exactly how I start my SR500.
 
- the above is absolutely correct

key on
gas in tank
tank on

- when then no
- if i may tho, i would propose a slight clarification to the above

hunting out a non-start is a process as stated ... when suspecting a carb problem dont just rip into it expecting to find a carb problem ... taking carbs apart isnt the problem, getting them to the point where you can take them apart is-theyre a bitch to remove and replace...also it is common to mistake electrical problems as being carb related

... if your bike has been sitting a while it would pay to check the electrical connections for tightness and corrosion - clean and cover with electrical grease - esp the kill switch

- set a routine
- because many are cam driven ignitions theyre never going to run right if the cam isnt timed properly - if your motor has been running and you havent done anything to it then it should run again, however the chain does stretch and this causes valve and ignition timing problems on points motors and valve timing problems on electronic motors...so...

- first, on a cold engine...

... make sure your battery is full
... start draining your oil, remove-inspect and clean or replace both oil filters, look for bits of what is not supposed to be there - if theyre there ask why? - does the oil smell of petrol? (indicates past float problems)
... pull your plugs - read them, this will tell you how the motor has been last running (hot/cold, lean/rich, oily carbon/fuel carbon, electrode wear ...)
... adjust your camchain tension
... set your valve clearances
... cold set your timing - clean your points with a file, set them and triple check them - also look for spark size and colour (coil indicators)
... now do a compression test - even?(rhs is often slightly weaker, between 100 and 145 is ok, low indicates wear, high often means carbon build-up)..uneven?(can indicate valve seating or ring problems), is the crankcase pressurising?
... inspect, remove and clean air filters - replace damaged filters
... petcocks, tank filter (and tank for rust), inline filters - check for function and clean
... turn petrol on - what happens? leaks? where? nothing? if you get leaking through the air filter, stop - your floats are not right and if you go further the petrol may end in your sump
... remove bowl drain screws - do you get petrol? how much?

- at this stage you will know a lot about your motor - if all is ok you will also know that the problem is not timing, electrical or fuel/air delivery to the carbs...put filters in, fill with oil and try kicking her over

- when a bike has been sitting for a while, commonly the pilot systems, needle valve and bowl varnish-up requiring a strip down - your bike may run without this but may also show signs of not wanting to idle

...now, if you have to, pull the carbs...when petrol comes out the little holes by the butterfly valve your pilot systems are ok again ...

Dont soak your carbs, it ruins the rubber bits, esp choke and butterfly valve seals

... this will help.

http://www.amckayltd.com/carbguide.pdf
 
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A lot of variables go into the order of the steps you should take when diagnose a bike that won't start. One of those variables is time. If you just rode the bike, went in for lunch, then go back out and your bike doesn't start, your going to suspect something easy like key, kill switch, safety relay, gas not on, dead battery from leaving the key on, etc.. If you get a bike that's been sitting in a barn for 15 years and you have no idea if the motor is seized, blown up, or in perfect condition, your going to start with things like seeing if the motor turns over, checking compression etc.. . If it's something in between, like a bike that used to work just fine and won't start because it's been sitting for a year or two, you'll probably suspect a dead battery, gunked up carburetors, or something like that and go from there.

So we can't create a perfect step by step guide to why a bike won't start when there are so many variables. You just need to understand the basic systems of the bike and use what you know about the bike, like how long it's been sitting, when it last ran, how well it ran when put away, what it sounds like when turns over, etc to start diagnosing.
 
After all of this, I hope dayv comes back and says his bike runs and starts just fine and that he just had the kill switch off. :laugh:
 
- completely agree
- dayv says hes clueless, i understand he has heard the bike running but doesnt know the previous history...needs to get to basics and start building a picture of what he has
- couldnt have chosen a better first machine - will discover motorcycling isnt just about plastic
- time to get a manual dayv - enjoy your new learning curve...
 
first off... THANK YOU EVERYONE!!! you all are super helpfull. ive alway been a car guy and they are not always as helpfull to someone so new to the forums. anyway...
apparently the bike DOES have an electric starter one it. it was bad so the guy didnt even have it wired. i didnt mention but this bike is a slapped together franken-bobber that was in pieces when i picked it up. he basically set the motor into frame with nothing but one bolt and a throttle connected just to test the freshly bored motor.
so to make a long story even longer... i drove the bike home from the guys house in my truck, slapped it together just to get a better idea of what type of build the bike will be. thats when i tried to start it and could not. i just dismantled everything i/he did untill i discovered the electric start. i wired it up with a new ignition switch and it fired right up. still cant kick start the damn thing but it will start and run fine with electric starter. is there a separate kick start gear somewhere in there that may be worn? it does catch and crank but doesnt really get resistance till about 5 inches into the kick.
 
what plastic are you speaking of.
I beleive they are talking about how the Sport bikes killed of the standard bikes...in the picture I attached is my 07 Fz6 it's a standard bike half faired and the yellow bike next to it is it's replacement the FZ6R 2009 model 25 less hp and a ton more Plastic and a tube frame,and they are flying of the showroom floor!! :wtf: my bike sat new on the same showroom floor for more than a year..... and is a far superior machine but just not enough plastic for the American market....:confused:
 

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first off... THANK YOU EVERYONE!!! you all are super helpfull. ive alway been a car guy and they are not always as helpfull to someone so new to the forums. anyway...
apparently the bike DOES have an electric starter one it. it was bad so the guy didnt even have it wired. i didnt mention but this bike is a slapped together franken-bobber that was in pieces when i picked it up. he basically set the motor into frame with nothing but one bolt and a throttle connected just to test the freshly bored motor.
so to make a long story even longer... i drove the bike home from the guys house in my truck, slapped it together just to get a better idea of what type of build the bike will be. thats when i tried to start it and could not. i just dismantled everything i/he did untill i discovered the electric start. i wired it up with a new ignition switch and it fired right up. still cant kick start the damn thing but it will start and run fine with electric starter. is there a separate kick start gear somewhere in there that may be worn? it does catch and crank but doesnt really get resistance till about 5 inches into the kick.

Well I'm glad you got your bike running.. Sounds like you know a little bit about what you're doing and aren't clueless like you said in your first post. I have the opposite problem with the electric start on one bike. It kicks over easy but the electric start will hardly start it. I could fix it but it's so easy to start by kicking that I don't even bother. You can take the right side engine cover off and play with the kick start bendix. It may not be put in properly. You'll have to drain the oil first. Or you could cheat like I do sometimes and lean the bike way over to the left, then you'll only spill a few ounces onto the floor but oil will get all over the frame and under the motor.

Got any pictures of your project?

what plastic are you speaking of.

Yeah, we were just talking about how motorcycles used to be made of metal. Like the XS650, the only cosmetic plastic on them was the side covers and even those were metal until the mid seventies. And how part of the fun of motorcycling is working on your old bike and knowing it in and out. You'll have to understand it to maintain it and keep it on the road. New bikes are great but when you just put gas in them and change the oil once in a while, you never really learn how the motorcycle works. And everything is covered in plastic so you don't even see the mechanical pieces of the bike. Don't get me wrong, new bikes are great, that's why I own one, but it's nice to understand the old stuff too and see where the modern stuff came from.
 
maybe clueless was not the best word.. but like i said ive never owned a bike before, ive only rode a few over the years, so my experience and knowledge are (VERY) limited.
here are a few pics of the bike as it sits
full

full

full


again. thanks for the help.
 
just to build it clean and reliable.. the frame and coffin tank is as modded as the bike will get. ill just replace all the other small parts, have it powder coated( purple frame i think, everything else black) then ride
 
That's cool, right now it looks like someone took a can of gold spray paint to it. So you're probably looking for a spoked rear wheel so they match?
 
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