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The Garage Motorcycle Related Discussion (Yamaha XS650, other makes and models, and anything else motorcycle related including tools and gear)

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Old 10-17-2009, 06:02 PM   #1
Travis
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Default Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Cowboy3669's turbo drag bike got me thinking about what would be involved with making an XS650 fuel injected. I know there's a couple of guys on the net with turbo projects in the works that are planning to run fuel injection but they aren't done with their projects yet. Does anyone know of anyone who has successfully done it?

What information does the computer need? Crank position, rpm, throttle position, airflow, and oxygen sensor?


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Old 10-18-2009, 02:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

- i dont know of anyone actually running FI on an XS but this bloke is getting there http://www.xs650.org.au/kev%27s%20turbo.htm


Kev


Kev..turbo/FI detail

- Gavin Hall, owner of Whiplash, had planned on adding FI after the 2002 season but i havent heard any more about him



- i had an old honda VTR1000 with FI..it had ECM sensors for
throttle position
manifold absolute pressure
air pressure
inlet air temp
engine coolant temp
...as well as...
crank position
cam position
vehicle lean angle
vehicle speed


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Old 10-18-2009, 11:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Yeah Kevin Palmer is one of the guys I was talking about. If anyone can do it, I'm sure he can.

I'm not sure of what the minimum amount of sensors needed would be. I wouldn't think it would be more than 5 or 6, but that's just a guess.


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Old 10-18-2009, 04:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

- interesting read...

Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook
Adam Wade

# Paperback: 160 pages
# Publisher: Motorbooks; First edition (August 14, 2004)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 076031635X
# ISBN-13: 978-0760316351


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Old 10-18-2009, 09:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Just bought a copy on Amazon. It should be good for theory, but someone with first hand knowledge of converting an xs650 to fuel injection would be the ultimate resource.


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Old 10-18-2009, 11:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Hey travis thanks for the invite over here.

I don't have firsthand experience yet because I'm still in the process of doing it. However I can say that I'm going to use the exact same system I used when I supercharged my Neon, so the sensors are the same.

I'm going to be using megasquirt engine management. required sensors for fuel control only are: Throttle position, coolant temp sensor (in this case you use a sensor to monitor the oil temp. Which is not as reliable an indicator but it's what we've got.) air temp sensor, and coil reference signal. The MAP sensor is actually built into the megasquirt unit, so all you have to do is run a boost reference line from the intake to the megasquirt casing.

If you want to run the spark management as well you do need a couple extra sensors. But honestly there's not nearly as many sensors as you would think to run just fuel injection.

that's my thoughts anyway
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Sky,

Welcome to the forum! and thanks for joining! That system doesn't sound too bad. I can't wait to see the progress and hear about all the battles and successes of trying to get it all to come together. Keep us posted on your progress!


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Old 10-19-2009, 10:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

nice aluminum welds wish i could do that
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

yeah kevin seems like the master of all thing fabricating.


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Old 10-20-2009, 06:19 AM   #10
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

we have an aluinum mig welder but i cannt seem to get it right it looks like burnt gum stuck to everthing ,anyone have any help tips thanks,oh by the way i have no problem miging steel.
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Old 01-10-2010, 05:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

- just thought id bump this along...could be worth watching this shotcaller as it progresses

- also this forum has a mega squirt success story-motorcycles section that is interesting


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Old 01-12-2010, 09:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

- jeff thomas from thomas racing services is a nitrous running hill climber who i understand is also involved in fuel injection projects wrt our beloved XS650, i have tried to contact him by email with no success...here is a link to him if anyone is interested in following this up thomas racing service


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Old 01-12-2010, 09:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

damn inxs, you find everything.. That mega squirt motorcycle sections looks interesting.. I'll have to look into that when I have more time.


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Old 01-18-2010, 06:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

- interesting reading for turbo- and super- charged motors

- water injection permits higher BMEPs with the same fuel octane...well proven by Harry Ricardo in 1933, read " The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine"

- this has been extensivey used in super- and turbo- charged aircraft engines during and post WWII for increased takeoff and combat power...and later for racing in F1 and WRC cars.

- a lot of info about combustion, ignition, emissions and fuels from this era has been subsequently either lost, forgotten or ignored by the automotive industry despite aero engine industry documentation

- see "Power Plants for Aircraft" by Joseph Liston, McGraw-Hill 1953, pp 577 ASIN: B0000EGOYS if you can find a copy ...try your local library perhaps


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Old 04-08-2010, 09:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaha_chop View Post
I'm going to be using megasquirt engine management. required sensors for fuel control only are: Throttle position, coolant temp sensor (in this case you use a sensor to monitor the oil temp. Which is not as reliable an indicator but it's what we've got.) air temp sensor, and coil reference signal. The MAP sensor is actually built into the megasquirt unit, so all you have to do is run a boost reference line from the intake to the megasquirt casing.
Hm. What about o2 sensor(s)? You *could* run a static fuel map, but the o2 sensor makes it so much better.

And i'm assuming you're using an electrical fuel pump...

Temp sensor is fine in the oil - it's really only used for "is the engine warmed up" and is usually a tipover mark in this application. In something that has a idle air control, you can use warmer = less air, but we don't have that.

I've actually given some thought to MSing the XS. I've done a couple of VW's (my 16v and a friend's odd duck ABA) and i think it's do-able. Especially if they come out with the microsquirt (which is the same thing, just in a much smaller package).

The really nice thing is that MS does all the math/setup for you. You just have to tell it displacement, number of injectors, flow of injectors, and fuel pressure.


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Old 04-20-2010, 09:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

You guys seem to be making this a little harder than it has to be. I would say a good plenum, short runners, and some low CC injectors would round out the hard parts. Add a small automotive throttle body with a TPS, figure out a way to run a prox sensor off the crank, and use a MAP sensor for your pressure. I would recommend Mega/Micro squirt. Good stuff.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

I just got my MS last week. I need to build it now. Plus actually finish the bike So it'll be awhile before I get to use it.

I forgot to mention that I am going to be using an Innovate LC-1 wideband sensor for tuning purposes. And yes I'll be running an external fuel pump, along with a pressure regulator.

I'm getting closer and closer though.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
What information does the computer need?

Actually, it doesn't even require a computer. I seem to remember the first commercial fuel injection came out in the late 50s (Corvette?).

Today though, even the simple requirements that would have had would most easily be met with a single chip computer and a few lines of firmware replacing whatever box of electronics it used. I used to work on Fords and knew all about their system of injection. Been a long time though. Lots of books out there. Never worked on a car from pre-computer days that had it myself, though.




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Old 01-18-2011, 02:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaha_chop View Post
Hey travis thanks for the invite over here.

I don't have firsthand experience yet because I'm still in the process of doing it. However I can say that I'm going to use the exact same system I used when I supercharged my Neon, so the sensors are the same.

I'm going to be using megasquirt engine management. required sensors for fuel control only are: Throttle position, coolant temp sensor (in this case you use a sensor to monitor the oil temp. Which is not as reliable an indicator but it's what we've got.) air temp sensor, and coil reference signal. The MAP sensor is actually built into the megasquirt unit, so all you have to do is run a boost reference line from the intake to the megasquirt casing.

If you want to run the spark management as well you do need a couple extra sensors. But honestly there's not nearly as many sensors as you would think to run just fuel injection.

that's my thoughts anyway

What are you using for throttle bodies?

-=PO
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Fuel Injection on an XS650?

Okay so I'm new to the xs, just got my first one a few weeks ago... But I'm a fabricator by trade so this should be a fun project... Anyways, don't shoot me if this is a bad idea or completely a newb question but could you use a fuel injection system from another 2cyl bike or even a Yamaha raptor cause I believe the 700 is FI and close to the same CC's.... Idk if that's a possibility or not?
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