Hey, Bill! Sure. It just requires doing the math for flow volume, viscosity, and filtration surface area.
Now, the really tough stuff is osmosis filtration. Pour it in, wait a few weeks...
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
oil filter
- Thread starter inxs
- Start date
-
- Tags
- engine oil oil filter
Hey, Bill! Sure. It just requires doing the math for flow volume, viscosity, and filtration surface area.
Now, the really tough stuff is osmosis filtration. Pour it in, wait a few weeks...
Okay, you're over my head, fill in the blanks, how much filtration surface area would be necessary for an XS using 5 micron filtration using say Rotella T 15w-40 and a stock oil pump?
RB Talk about a blast from the past, howzit going old man?
Only question in my mind is that fine enough to prevent oil pump damage? It's a pick up screen, right? For that reason I kinda like the pleated paper side filters. But have only one xs with other than stock filtration, it's got a spin on in front of the motor.
Only question in my mind is that fine enough to prevent oil pump damage? It's a pick up screen, right? For that reason I kinda like the pleated paper side filters. But have only one xs with other than stock filtration, it's got a spin on in front of the motor.
It was this question which caused me to look into running a filter where the starter motor goes. There's nothing to say another filter can't be added which has to be part of the normal lubricating circuit... I was thinking maybe just pull oil from the sump, filter it and put it back in the sump.
I looked at electric pumps, some are pricey, some 12v I looked at were high wattage at 60W rating which would maybe push the electrics a bit much, some 30 minute duty cycle, some recommended only to be used once oil was hot... but then you wouldn't necessarily need to run in constantly if you just want to aid filtration by pulling out some minor particles. Could maybe run a mechanical one off the redundant E start cross over shaft gears but that'd take some engineering, I didn't really look at my cases too much to see what it might take... probably almost impossible.
Then I found the article I linked on the previous page about the starter motor sump filter mod which was interesting.
Going well, you?
I'm using a spin-on on the side of the engine but like you I wonder about too fine a pick-up screen as there's no pressure, only gravity flow there. That's why I never converted to a spin-on sump filter conversion. Like most old motorcycles these bikes had low pressures even when new and restricting returns where gravity is the only feed doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
But hey, if people are making it work over the long haul then consider me wrong.
As one of my partners likes to say, "Every solution creates a brand new set of problems."
It probably wouldn't be hard at all to design a high volume-- high pressure oil pump to replace the stock oil pump but then we run the risk of constant oil leaks caused by the extra pressure finding and making holes it never found before.
What you're describing is like the Amsoil Bypass Filtration system. Dabbled with those 30 years ago.
This one filters down to 2 microns:
Haha, welcome to the mind trap of "relative pressures". When you think in term of "absolute pressures", you'll realize that atmospheric pressure is what's pushing the sump oil into the pump.
Like sucking on that soda straw.
1 atmosphere is about 14.7 psi.
If you were to take a tall column, evacuated (pure vacuum) and sealed at the top, bottom end submerged in a liquid, the atmospheric (sea level) pressure would push:
Water up to a height of about 34 feet.
Mercury up to a height of about 30 inches.
Motor oil up to a height of about 45 feet.
Now, reverse the process. Imagine a column of hot motor oil, 45 feet tall, constantly replenished to maintain that 45 foot height. At the bottom is a filtration system. It just gravity-dumps into a bucket. And, you want it to be able to deliver 3 gallons-per-minute.
(3 gallons-per-minute is about max flow of a stock XS650 pump, engine at 9,000 rpm)
That pretty well sums-up the challenge of our XS650 sump filter.
To visualize that amount of flow, imagine pouring a gallon jug of milk, emptying it in 20 seconds.
(I'm using milk here as its viscosity is similar to hot oil)
Better yet, what diameter hole drilled in the bottom of that milk jug would empty it in 20 seconds?
The oil delivery passage, from sump to pump, in our XS's is 13mm (1/2") diameter. How long would it take that gallon jug of milk to empty if it had a 1/2" hole in the bottom?
Not a problem. We've already got one. The design of our stock pump is the same as that used in my tractor (and a buncha other stuff) to deliver 2000 psi to the hydraulics. Difference is, our bikes don't use high pressure, but the capability is there...
But isn't atmospheric pressure also providing resistance to the upward flow provided by the oil pump? A lot of these bikes only show 7-10 lbs of oil pressure. By taking into account your explanation the oil would seem to flow backwards or not at all.
Methinks atmospheric pressure is of no consequence as the oil pump starts doing it's job at atmospheric pressure. In other words: at sea level Zero lbs of oil pressure is actually 14.7 lbs and 10 lbs of oil pressure really equals 24.7 lbs.
After all, would the oil pump not still work the same in a vacuum where no atmospheric pressure existed?
Gravity is what returns the oil to the sump. If you don't believe me simply try to operate any XS upside down after turning the carbs over to get them to work. In short order you will have a blown engine. Very few 4 cycle engines-- mostly airplanes and a few of the new 4 stroke weedeater engines-- can be run upside down.
Last edited:
Yew betcha! Plus all that other stuff in the way, like filters, sprayers and orifices.
But, that's on the outlet side of the pump.
Ah, you're onto the "Perpetual Motion" machine.
That's right! "Absolute pressure" thinkin'.
Not unless the oil is above (gravity-wise) the pump to feed it.
With no gravity and in a vacuum, it won't work at all.
Can't suck soda thru a straw in the vacuum of space.
Fluid pumps have a similar problem at high altitudes. Gotta figure the "head".
Oh, yeah, I believe you! It also really helps during oil changes. Quite a handy thing, that gravity.
But, some days I wished I had a "gravity knob".
So I could dial it down a little...
Just a trivial update, may be of interest to purists or the curious.
On the advice of others in this forum, I acquired a spare sump cover, sump filter and drain plug, from a salvaged '74.
Then compared these parts to my original '71 parts.
Researching the parts manuals and comparing the pics:
256-13417-00-00 - Sump cover (1970-1984)
The sump cover part number remained unchanged throughout production.
But, you'll see subtle differences here.
Casting marks are different. The oil passage/bridge is larger and machined flat on the later cover.
(Please ignore the probe in the lower right, separate project)
256-15351-00-00 - Drain plug (1970-1984)
The drain plug part number remained unchanged throughout production.
But, if I lay a screwdriver over the magnet of the later plug, the magnet is strong enough to let me lift it off the table. The early drain plug magnets fail this test, the magnets are weaker and release before I can lift the plugs off the table.
256-13411-00-00 - Sump filter (1970-1971)
256-13411-01-00 - Sump filter, with magnets (1972-1984)
The addition of magnets is quite obvious.
Now, here's where it gets complicated. The (3) sump filter bolts.
The early boltheads were cross-drilled for safety wire. But, never saw safety wire used.
95201-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (cross-drilled heads) (1970-1972)
After 1972, the sump filter bolts had normal hex heads, but the parts manuals have a nasty mix of part numbers.
97301-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1973)
97313-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1974)
97301-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1975-1980)
97021-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (prior to 1979)
97313-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1979)
These part numbers present 6mm bolts of 40mm and 45mm lengths.
The 45mm bolts dont seat as deeply in my '71 cover, and almost don't seat enough to clamp down on the filter.
Something to watch for, I guess...
On the advice of others in this forum, I acquired a spare sump cover, sump filter and drain plug, from a salvaged '74.
Then compared these parts to my original '71 parts.
Researching the parts manuals and comparing the pics:
256-13417-00-00 - Sump cover (1970-1984)
The sump cover part number remained unchanged throughout production.
But, you'll see subtle differences here.
Casting marks are different. The oil passage/bridge is larger and machined flat on the later cover.
(Please ignore the probe in the lower right, separate project)
256-15351-00-00 - Drain plug (1970-1984)
The drain plug part number remained unchanged throughout production.
But, if I lay a screwdriver over the magnet of the later plug, the magnet is strong enough to let me lift it off the table. The early drain plug magnets fail this test, the magnets are weaker and release before I can lift the plugs off the table.
256-13411-00-00 - Sump filter (1970-1971)
256-13411-01-00 - Sump filter, with magnets (1972-1984)
The addition of magnets is quite obvious.
Now, here's where it gets complicated. The (3) sump filter bolts.
The early boltheads were cross-drilled for safety wire. But, never saw safety wire used.
95201-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (cross-drilled heads) (1970-1972)
After 1972, the sump filter bolts had normal hex heads, but the parts manuals have a nasty mix of part numbers.
97301-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1973)
97313-06040-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1974)
97301-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1975-1980)
97021-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (prior to 1979)
97313-06045-00 - Sump filter bolts (3) (1979)
These part numbers present 6mm bolts of 40mm and 45mm lengths.
The 45mm bolts dont seat as deeply in my '71 cover, and almost don't seat enough to clamp down on the filter.
Something to watch for, I guess...
I really thought I found the holy grail! I pulled a sump filter tonight. (why tonight is a d-oh story itself)
After more than 5 years of XS repairs and dozens of sump filter inspections, I thought I found a sump filter that wasn't torn! Even the 5,000 mile barn find 79 had a torn sump filter.
After more than 5 years of XS repairs and dozens of sump filter inspections, I thought I found a sump filter that wasn't torn! Even the 5,000 mile barn find 79 had a torn sump filter.
It looks good!
Nope, the screen is torn off the two spot welds right above the drain hole in this pic.
Torn in the same spot the other OE filters tear.
This IS an OE filter!
The good news although it was evident the oil had a lot of miles on it there were few flecks in either filter. I borescoped the cylinders today and they look good too!
If you haven't guessed yet it's from engine #1550
Nope, the screen is torn off the two spot welds right above the drain hole in this pic.
Torn in the same spot the other OE filters tear.
This IS an OE filter!
The good news although it was evident the oil had a lot of miles on it there were few flecks in either filter. I borescoped the cylinders today and they look good too!
If you haven't guessed yet it's from engine #1550
Amazing, someone built a sump filter that covers every square inch with solid steel except the spot that always tears.
That's definitely odd, first I've seen one like that!
Maybe some ham-handed wrench punched that screen with his thumb during handling.
The screen mesh looks to be coarser than normal filters?
Maybe some ham-handed wrench punched that screen with his thumb during handling.
The screen mesh looks to be coarser than normal filters?
Brian902
XS650 Junkie
IMHO we are still trying the wrong solutions.
The only solution I believe will work is moving the filter down at least 25 mm with a spacer much like the racer version Mike sells, so the filter is out of all that turbulence.
The sump pickup on a Kawasaki Nijani 1400, that I was working on last year, is approximately 100 mm below the bottom of the crank, well out of any crank influences.
The crank is having a great time spinning that oil into jet streams with not even a windage tray to help.
Just my opinion.
The only solution I believe will work is moving the filter down at least 25 mm with a spacer much like the racer version Mike sells, so the filter is out of all that turbulence.
The sump pickup on a Kawasaki Nijani 1400, that I was working on last year, is approximately 100 mm below the bottom of the crank, well out of any crank influences.
The crank is having a great time spinning that oil into jet streams with not even a windage tray to help.
Just my opinion.
Attachments
I just ordered up some stainless steel screen in 150 mesh and some in a coarse mesh (for support) I have 8 filters cleaned and ready to patch. I have been tack welding on the steel covers cut from 1 gallon solvent cans, the last one I epoxied on. But really think epoxying on mesh is a more elegant solution.
Most of the torn filters I've encountered still had the screen there, it was just split. I think it makes a wonderful backing for the JB Weld which results in a very strong repair. I've yet to have one of these patched filters fail on me (knock on wood, lol). I finally encountered one where the screen was gone. This required a sheet metal patch .....
Although not pictured, I did epoxy all around the edges. One needn't be too concerned with the patch popping out. Oil flows into the filter, not out of it, so the pressure is pushing in on the patch. These filters don't blow "out", they actually blow "in".
Although not pictured, I did epoxy all around the edges. One needn't be too concerned with the patch popping out. Oil flows into the filter, not out of it, so the pressure is pushing in on the patch. These filters don't blow "out", they actually blow "in".
Last edited:
Brian902, I as well as others don't think turbulence from the crank tears the filters. If you look where the filter tears you can see it tears at it weakest point, which is also the point the screening is closest to the out flow port to the pump.
When the oil is cold, as at start up, the oil doesn't flow as well as after it warms up a bit. The pump is pulling this cold oil quite a bit force. At idle this force is small, at higher revs it becomes much stronger. This puts a lot of stress on the filter screen. It tears at the weak spot.
A bit of warm up is needed to help get the oil warmed up and flowing through the screen easier. With the temp dip stick I like to let the bike warm up as I put on my riding gear. This takes a few minutes. This lets the oil temps get up to around 100*, I then take it easy for the first few miles to ensure the oil is warmed up before I take it over about 2500 rpms.
Leo
When the oil is cold, as at start up, the oil doesn't flow as well as after it warms up a bit. The pump is pulling this cold oil quite a bit force. At idle this force is small, at higher revs it becomes much stronger. This puts a lot of stress on the filter screen. It tears at the weak spot.
A bit of warm up is needed to help get the oil warmed up and flowing through the screen easier. With the temp dip stick I like to let the bike warm up as I put on my riding gear. This takes a few minutes. This lets the oil temps get up to around 100*, I then take it easy for the first few miles to ensure the oil is warmed up before I take it over about 2500 rpms.
Leo
