All right Daniel, that was a lot of work you did in there! Fingers crossed!
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Stella - 1977D survivor, back on the road.
Good for you DB!
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Thanks guys. Making the morning commute the first real road test ups the ante just a bit, but Stella performed well. Some observations:
In the last couple hundred miles she slipped out of 2nd while coming off the line about four or five times. Upon inspection it was clear that the shift arm needed adjustment. Done. Twelve miles is of course way to short a sample to know if that was cured.
Shifting now feels much tighter, more pressure is needed to shift. Particularly downshifting, especially when stopped.
Neutral used to be just a bit elusive, but now it is downright difficult to find.
Upon 2M's pointing out the burnt condition of the friction plates I replaced them with new OEM plates. Nothing special, soaked in oil before install, but that's it. No white lithium grease this time around.
What I had thought was a bit of fork vibration upon takeoff I now recognize as the old plates slipping and not grabbing smoothly. Pulling off the line is now faster and super smooth. Like butter.
This go around I kept the stock springs, they all measured between 35.2 & 35.4mm. Nor did I smooth the sharp edge of the steel plates. Nor did I explore the deeper parts as suggested by 2M such as the index wheel or stop plate. My interest was just to see what new plates and proper shift arm adjustment would do. I'll get into the more intricate details next time.
This clutch work was done in the midst of a periodic oil change and timing/valve adjustment. So, a few other items to note.
I found the source of an intermittent ticking, one side of the Boyer timing rotor touching a pickup post. Glad to have fixed that with just a more careful centering of the stator plate.
After a cam chain tensioning (the cold, turn it by hand until it stops method), I checked valve lash. .003/.006 all around. I did not loosen any tappet lock nuts. Here's the funny thing, though. I used to have quite a bit of valve chatter until the oil got up top and clearances closed. Now, all is quiet even after sitting for three weeks and starting up on a brisk 60 degree morning. Hmm...
Oh, the starter works great. There's still just a touch of gear noise, but you can tell it's engaging and disengaging as it should.
All in all, rather successful I think. Best of all, I didn't leave any puddles in the parking lot. I got the right hand cover sealed up well.
Once again, thanks to the guidance of this exceptional online community.
In the last couple hundred miles she slipped out of 2nd while coming off the line about four or five times. Upon inspection it was clear that the shift arm needed adjustment. Done. Twelve miles is of course way to short a sample to know if that was cured.
Shifting now feels much tighter, more pressure is needed to shift. Particularly downshifting, especially when stopped.
Neutral used to be just a bit elusive, but now it is downright difficult to find.
Upon 2M's pointing out the burnt condition of the friction plates I replaced them with new OEM plates. Nothing special, soaked in oil before install, but that's it. No white lithium grease this time around.
What I had thought was a bit of fork vibration upon takeoff I now recognize as the old plates slipping and not grabbing smoothly. Pulling off the line is now faster and super smooth. Like butter.
This go around I kept the stock springs, they all measured between 35.2 & 35.4mm. Nor did I smooth the sharp edge of the steel plates. Nor did I explore the deeper parts as suggested by 2M such as the index wheel or stop plate. My interest was just to see what new plates and proper shift arm adjustment would do. I'll get into the more intricate details next time.
This clutch work was done in the midst of a periodic oil change and timing/valve adjustment. So, a few other items to note.
I found the source of an intermittent ticking, one side of the Boyer timing rotor touching a pickup post. Glad to have fixed that with just a more careful centering of the stator plate.
After a cam chain tensioning (the cold, turn it by hand until it stops method), I checked valve lash. .003/.006 all around. I did not loosen any tappet lock nuts. Here's the funny thing, though. I used to have quite a bit of valve chatter until the oil got up top and clearances closed. Now, all is quiet even after sitting for three weeks and starting up on a brisk 60 degree morning. Hmm...
Oh, the starter works great. There's still just a touch of gear noise, but you can tell it's engaging and disengaging as it should.
All in all, rather successful I think. Best of all, I didn't leave any puddles in the parking lot. I got the right hand cover sealed up well.
Once again, thanks to the guidance of this exceptional online community.
That’s all great to hear Daniel! Could your difficulty finding neutral be just some fine tuning your clutch adjustment?
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Anything's possible, Bob.
Hi Daniel:
Is neutral easier to find when you are just rolling to a stop? Just thinking about it, that’s what I usually do and it always seems to work OK - certainly easier than searching around while stationary.
Pete
Is neutral easier to find when you are just rolling to a stop? Just thinking about it, that’s what I usually do and it always seems to work OK - certainly easier than searching around while stationary.
Pete
Way to go Daniel! Well done. And, another well documented and photographed post.
IMHO as I think you are wondering a bit of noise for a few seconds til the chain picks up some oil seems like the sweet spot on cam chain adjustment. I really prefer the adjust at idle til rod just stops moving then back off a "bit". 2 flats (1/3 turn) is a recommendation from WER or RG can never remember which.....
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"Neutral used to be just a bit elusive, but now it is downright difficult to find."Thanks guys. Making the morning commute the first real road test ups the ante just a bit, but Stella performed well. Some observations:
In the last couple hundred miles she slipped out of 2nd while coming off the line about four or five times. Upon inspection it was clear that the shift arm needed adjustment. Done. Twelve miles is of course way to short a sample to know if that was cured.
Shifting now feels much tighter, more pressure is needed to shift. Particularly downshifting, especially when stopped.
Neutral used to be just a bit elusive, but now it is downright difficult to find.
Upon 2M's pointing out the burnt condition of the friction plates I replaced them with new OEM plates. Nothing special, soaked in oil before install, but that's it. No white lithium grease this time around.
What I had thought was a bit of fork vibration upon takeoff I now recognize as the old plates slipping and not grabbing smoothly. Pulling off the line is now faster and super smooth. Like butter.
This go around I kept the stock springs, they all measured between 35.2 & 35.4mm. Nor did I smooth the sharp edge of the steel plates. Nor did I explore the deeper parts as suggested by 2M such as the index wheel or stop plate. My interest was just to see what new plates and proper shift arm adjustment would do. I'll get into the more intricate details next time.
This clutch work was done in the midst of a periodic oil change and timing/valve adjustment. So, a few other items to note.
I found the source of an intermittent ticking, one side of the Boyer timing rotor touching a pickup post. Glad to have fixed that with just a more careful centering of the stator plate.
After a cam chain tensioning (the cold, turn it by hand until it stops method), I checked valve lash. .003/.006 all around. I did not loosen any tappet lock nuts. Here's the funny thing, though. I used to have quite a bit of valve chatter until the oil got up top and clearances closed. Now, all is quiet even after sitting for three weeks and starting up on a brisk 60 degree morning. Hmm...
Oh, the starter works great. There's still just a touch of gear noise, but you can tell it's engaging and disengaging as it should.
All in all, rather successful I think. Best of all, I didn't leave any puddles in the parking lot. I got the right hand cover sealed up well.
Once again, thanks to the guidance of this exceptional online community.
Sorry to hear that you have some lingering issues. I think that the further refinements you mention will gain you better performance.
I don't think I have any "performance secrets" to offer, but I will mention what I did to my '76 XS, which is the best-functioning of the 4 that I regularly ride. I can find neutral easily anytime, anywhere. And the clutch lever can be pulled easily with one finger (except the pinky).
> polished the push rod.
> new OEM plates, as I've mentioned
> filed smooth all the plate edges.
> stacked the plates in the preferable direction.
> spent hours carefully filing/smoothing the basket contact edges.
> graphite-based grease on the worm.
> measured each of the springs, and labelled each one. Carefully placed them around the clutch in a manner that most effectively balances or distributes the pressures of the individual springs on the clutch.
In the regards to the latter. I will mention that, back in my kart racing days, I gained access to a manufacturer's stock (by way of a distributor) of clutch springs for my SMC centrifugal axle clutch.
Not very different from the XS clutch, just actuated by centr. force.
However, I was able, at a slightly higher cost for time and trouble, to get a set of springs which were all the same length (within about .002", as best I can recall: old fart memory).
The performance advantage I gained was significant. The previously-used springs had length differences similar to yours.
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I would just like to inform you all of my recent experience. I bought a TX750 that had been stood for god knows how long. After recommissioning, on the initial rides I was amazed by the ease that I could select neutral with engin running. I was pleased. After a couple of hundred miles I noticed that the gear selection around 1st and 2nd was vague. I knew from previous experience with my original XS2 in 73/74 that one of the springs inside on the mechanism had broken. So I took off the clutch case and sure enough a spring had broken, but it was the detent roller arm spring.
Not having the correct spring I replaced it with something similar, built it back up all seemed to be OK. Upon riding I found that neutral was all but impossible to select when running, and difficult with engine stopped. A marked change from before. My conclusion was, the spring on the detent arm I had fitted was too strong. I ordered a correct spring from YamBits and fitted it. Now neutral is easy to find with engine running, or not. Different bike I know but TX750’s do have a similar mechanism and do suffer with the elusive neutral problem.
Not having the correct spring I replaced it with something similar, built it back up all seemed to be OK. Upon riding I found that neutral was all but impossible to select when running, and difficult with engine stopped. A marked change from before. My conclusion was, the spring on the detent arm I had fitted was too strong. I ordered a correct spring from YamBits and fitted it. Now neutral is easy to find with engine running, or not. Different bike I know but TX750’s do have a similar mechanism and do suffer with the elusive neutral problem.
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I don't think that has occurred to anybody before. Lessening the spring tension to address that problem.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Yes, it is easier when rolling, but it's tougher in all conditions compared to what it was. With proper cable and worm adjustment it wasn't a problem at all previously.
Quite possible, and I'm going to redo this adjustment today. But I'm intrigued by 2M's research that shows (please correct me if wrong) a strong correlation between the force required to shift and the elusiveness of neutral. I look forward to getting back in there in a leisurely fashion to address the finer details such as suggested by 2M and 'Dude. Smooth, easy, 'flickable' shifting. Maybe on this clutch, maybe on the donor motor to be rebuilt, I'll be going down this path again soon.
Rasputin, 2M found a lot of detent mechanisms misaligned with their recess. Something to look at for sure.
That's the method I typically use, but I was giving this one a shot based on another member's experience. I'm going to redo this adjustment today as well, I liked the reassurance of hearing the clearances close and oil start to circulate.
One more observation that I hadn't really thought about with my attention given to the improved electric starter. Kick starting is an easy one kick. I think I may have nailed my timing this time. Retarded just a bit, but not too much to roughen start/idle. Max advance 2-2.5mm shy of the mark.
Daniel, think you could do the "weighted wheel preload" test?
It could give us an idea of where the problem lies.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/yamaha-xs650-experimental-clutch.47498/page-2#post-477449
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
I'm sure I can handle this one.
Quote;
"I really prefer the adjust at idle til rod just stops moving then back off a "bit". 2 flats (1/3 turn) is a recommendation from WER or RG can never remember which....."
Yes, that's how I do mine Gary , on a hot engine. Its simple and it has worked well for me.
DanielBlack.......................for clutch adjustment, I have found the best way is to not use any clearance at all when adjusting down on the left engine side, and up at the lever. With a cold engine, there is no free play at the clutch lever, but as the engine heats up, free play will appear. I can always find neutral.
"I really prefer the adjust at idle til rod just stops moving then back off a "bit". 2 flats (1/3 turn) is a recommendation from WER or RG can never remember which....."
Yes, that's how I do mine Gary , on a hot engine. Its simple and it has worked well for me.
DanielBlack.......................for clutch adjustment, I have found the best way is to not use any clearance at all when adjusting down on the left engine side, and up at the lever. With a cold engine, there is no free play at the clutch lever, but as the engine heats up, free play will appear. I can always find neutral.
There must be a reason for this danged neutral issue.
My guess is that it’s partially the clutch adjustment, partially the condition of the clutch basket and plates (they might need to be de-burred) and partially that shift fork/starwheel adjustment that Daniel has done.
There are SO many components in this assembly chain that the tolerance stack up has to be pretty complex. Some bikes are simply “right” and others need some help to get into the sweet spot.
Just my two cents ($0.0176 USD).
Pete
My guess is that it’s partially the clutch adjustment, partially the condition of the clutch basket and plates (they might need to be de-burred) and partially that shift fork/starwheel adjustment that Daniel has done.
There are SO many components in this assembly chain that the tolerance stack up has to be pretty complex. Some bikes are simply “right” and others need some help to get into the sweet spot.
Just my two cents ($0.0176 USD).
Pete
Pete.......................I believe the design of the clutch worm gear mechanism is just a bad design. The principle is fine but the amount of axial movement transferred to the pushrod is just too small. In addition to that, Yamaha's design of the right engine cover is barely large enough to accommodate the full outward movement of the clutch. Its very common to see marks on the inside of the right cover, where the clutch touched it.
IME they can all be adjusted to be able to find neutral at a stop. Just takes some tinkerin.
DanielBlack
XS650 Junkie
Well, sometimes after a few miles things work themselves out on their own.
I'll be honest, this weekend I was more interested in polishing than wrenching and didn't redo either the cam chain tension nor the clutch worm. I looked at the clutch lever before starting up this morning and it had just the right amount of cold slack (near zero). So, no adjustment needed there. On today's ride the required shifting force and the elusiveness of neutral were back to what it was before the clutch work. Maybe something needed a couple dozen miles to bed in. I'm back to easy shifting and neutral needs only one or two attempts to find at a stop. Take-off is still super smooth.
Maybe Stella was cranky and just wanted to be prettied up a bit. Sometimes a shower will make me feel better, too.
I'll be honest, this weekend I was more interested in polishing than wrenching and didn't redo either the cam chain tension nor the clutch worm. I looked at the clutch lever before starting up this morning and it had just the right amount of cold slack (near zero). So, no adjustment needed there. On today's ride the required shifting force and the elusiveness of neutral were back to what it was before the clutch work. Maybe something needed a couple dozen miles to bed in. I'm back to easy shifting and neutral needs only one or two attempts to find at a stop. Take-off is still super smooth.
Maybe Stella was cranky and just wanted to be prettied up a bit. Sometimes a shower will make me feel better, too.
