...a very sad story...HD

I owned one Harley back in the '60s, a 55 cubic inch KH flathead. The local Harley shop was run by Dick Andrae, a retired Harley factory rider (National Number 89), and it was, like every other Harley dealership back then, emphatically a motorcycle shop, not a @)##!& boutique. In terms of technology and q.a., Harley was pretty much on a par with every other maker of big bikes ("big" back then meaning 650 cc. and up) until Honda rolled out the CB750. Somewhere along the line Harley decided to sell image and let the product stagnate. Now they're trying to play catch-up, but I expect it's too little, too late.

Don't get the idea that Indian is a Harley clone. The Indian engineering team is serious enough to have dominated American flat track racing in their first season out, and the FT1200 street tracker is a very serious performance motorcycle.
 
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Jray77 may have something there. I don't know how many times we pull up to a light and a Harley rider won't give us the time of day. Not all, but most. Son-in-law says, it's about him sitting on THOUSANDS of bucks worth of motorcycle and us on a 28 cent Honda and Yamaha. I think he's right. I got a neighbor with a Triumph he can't get rid of. He has to have too much for it. Ignition module has shit the bed AGAIN, second one in two years! It did it sitting in the shed. So he found a Road King and bought it. Don't ride it much. He has bad knees and a bad back and the Harley is heavy! Well, yeah! Make matters worse, he don't know anything about mechanics. At least it hasn't quit working just sitting in the shed. Harleys were about image. Not much has changed.
 
I love riding motorcycles. Mostly twin cylinder bikes. I did have a XJ600 Seca II for a couple years and it was a fun 4 cylinder. I'm sure when the KZ/GPz project is completed it too will be just as road eating fun. There was also had a 3 cylinder BSA 750 that I had one ride on before genading on the way to the emission station. Anyway, I've had 2 Big Twin H-D's and enjoyed them. Shovelhead FX models. Compared to our beloved XS 650's, they make our bikes the velvet smooth rides and the Hogs the paint mixers. I do love the sound of the staggered dual mufflers as the rider runs thru the gears. One of my dream bikes is a 80'CI Knucklehead powered, 4 speed tranny Softail. I'm no badass. Just a rider. I hear BMW riders are supposed to be elitists. I rode a couple of them too. I never felt superior or inferior to anyone no matter what my ass was on. I just ride on.
 
Jray77 may have something there.
I always get a kick out of how non-Harley riders feel belittled by Harley riders. I've had tons of Harley riders walk up to me on my XS admiring the bike and they inevitably strike up a conversation, usually reminiscing about how they drove one "back in the day". What I really get a kick out of is when I pull into our local Harley dealer on my XS, to pick up a part for my Harley. I think it's a misnomer to characterize all Harley riders into a particular negative stereotype. Most I meet are great and respectful people, not unlike most I meet on this forum.
 
When I take my XS2 out, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had ( usually an older guy ) on a Harley pass me in traffic, then jam on the brakes and come back to look at my bike. Then they’ll pull up beside me at a stop light and tell me something like
“ That was my first motorcycle, beautiful man!”
“ What year is that? It looks like new! “
Or they just give it a long look and give me the thumbs up.
It always makes my day. :)
 
I never understood the waving thing. I always thought it was a manners or courtesy thing. I noticed school bus drivers wave to each other frequently. Ive gotten attention from other bikers before and one guy mistakened my bike for something that was as fast as his H2 and tried to race me but I just didn't do anything. I was trying to just ride around and I didnt have a plate on so I didn't need to be doing anything foolish(as if riding around with no plate isn't already foolish)
 
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When I was a kid I had Harleys. I depended on them for transportation. My first Harley was a 1958 Harley Hummer. I worked on the things and I didn't know any better. One day my Little brother came home with a 441 BSA Victor, red and Ivory. That was a motorcycle. Once I got into "Precision" made bikes from over seas, Kawasaki mostly, I never looked back.
 
Another Iconic brand BMW, this was their heritage model, improved over the years.

1929 Horizontally opposed flat twin engine With shaft drive
View attachment 167410

90 years later, 2019. Horizontally opposed flat twin engine with shaft drive.
View attachment 167411

I agree that there's certainly room for heritage or traditions to be modernized gracefully. BMW is absolutely doing it right and I feel like they've done a way more tasteful and effective job than most other manufacturers. I do think it helps though that the BMW Boxer platform is and kinda always was a wonderful engine design. When people think of it people think about the ridiculous longevity they're known for in addition to being capable of great performance. It's similar to how Porsche has been able to evolve their Boxer engine platform over time rather than have to continually reinvent it. Only a few designs are that good. That's not to say there were never quirks as with anything, but their reputation there is almost entirely positive. When most people think Harley they think more about the ostentatious stuff. "The sound". "The Vibration". "The look". "The Feel". It was a shame watching the V-Rod and it's powertrain decay slowly away given that it was so much better than anything else they had, but that was basically the Anti-Harley and apparently it didn't win over enough people.

If sticking to the sandbox analogy, despite the age of both, BMW's platform being objectively better translates better to making a performance machine right now. They've got a way better sandbox to play in than Harley. I think ideally Harley "wants" to be seen by younger markets as the Mustang or Corvette or Challenger of the motorcycle world, because the appeal of those are ageless and consistent. That American muscle reputation that people get really excited for that's timeless. The more time passes on Harley ended up coming across more like the Buick of the motorcycle world to anyone that's a would-be outside buyer or a non-Harley guy. Tradition is increasingly Harley's boat anchor.
 
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I'll apologize, the douchebag comment was out of line. I am frustrated with the scene where I live. I was givin shit for wearing a helmet the other day. Not sure how you guys are but when I take something apart (especially wheels) I wear a helmet for a good while. Lol Did have a coworker say " Be a lot cooler of you had a Harley so we could do poker runs and drink some beers." Just like that. Again I apologize, it'll stay quarantined, antisocial and maybe just maybe my piss poor perspective will pass. These blaring stereos on baggers.....worse in packs. Lynard Skynard, Scorpions, seems to be a Creed in the pack most times. Haha! Does this annoy anyone else?
 
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I can't justify the cost of a Harley. Even for the used prices I can buy a used japanese brand and have money left over. And for that I get as much or more power, less vibration, no funky rubbermount swingarm, and they all have a huge aftermarket.

My XS was a $100 buy, ended up about $4k once I finished building it. My triumph tiger was $4k, and came with over $3k in extras. It gets 50mpg at 80mph, and is comfy and more capable than me.

I just look at harley and see people asking $6k for a 12yr old sportster that is bone stock, or the same price for a 90s bagger with 50k miles. It's just more than I can justify for what you get.
 
I have always said that before I die I would get a Harley. But that fine point where I don't need big acceleration and am willing to wrestle an insanely heavy cruiser has apparently passed. On the other hand I do have an early sportster motored Buell so guess that will be "good enough".
That said if the just right antique or springer front end Heritage popped up it still could happen.
Throwing Buell off the bus in 08 was a mistake, but I think Eric was always a handful to manage, passionate engineers can be that way, right Pete?
Gotta say; there are a LOT of Harleys on the road here the past two weeks. Singles, pairs, and largish groups.
I think you all are writing the epitaph too soon.
It's always been a niche market, for a while it was a very big profitable niche, it will be smaller going forward but still bigger than all but the go-go last 20-30 years. There's enough room just in parts and accessories for the existing fleet for a pretty big company.
The development, engineering, manufacturing are in place, and by all reports the Milwaukee 8 motor is a good product that could easily soldier on for another ten years.
 
This thread goes to show the various and diverse opinions that exist amongst riders of all age and socio-economic status on this forum, which helps to make it interesting and fun. I agree that Harley's are over priced. That aside, if you remove the AMF days from the equation, a company like Harley doesn't get to be where they're at by continuously building poor quality bikes that don't appeal to a particular segment of the market. I happen to fall into that original segment that is slowly aging away and causing Harley to re-invent themselves; they cherished the iconic "Made-in-America" brand and related pride that Harley stood for, and that Harley was genius at building upon, the sound of the V-twin that no other manufacturer could duplicate well no matter how hard they tried (look at all the Harley wanna-be models built by nearly every other manufacturer), the low-end torque and power, the relative good quality and availability of parts and endless ways to cusomize, and the commraddari with other Harley riders that stood for the same. Yes, there are the "douchebags" of the Harley world, just like there are with any other major brand. Harley will survive, but unfortunately they will be guided by principles prioritized based on what shareholders and Wall-streeters expect. Personally, I think they'd be better off going private again with the company.
 
PS if you like the cruiser riding position and don't knock it til you've ridden a 5-600 mile day on one, the V-twin IS the answer to the question which motor design is best. A motor that lets you get your feet comfortably alongside it IS the right answer. Why I've never ( and never will) distance ride on a Goldwing.
There's also something to low RPM chuffers that speaks to the relaxed soul that no screamer can match no matter how refined. Add to it that supporting YOUR country is experiencing a renaissance. They will;
keep on trucking.jpg
 
Made in America? Harley's Milwaukee operation isn't much more than an assembly plant for foreign-made components: carbs by Mikuni, forks by Showa, ignition by Hitachi, pistons and who knows what other engine parts made in Mexico. Maybe the frames are still welded up in the US so Hardly can claim to produce "American Iron?"
 
I was never a fan of HD..... very overpriced..... the bowling pin years didn't help. In 87' they entered the 21st century with a reliable engine.... better quality…. But HD charges what the market will bear..... have you priced a F-150.... even the new Ranger is sticker shock.... the old Plymouth Caravan was thousands less in Canada then the states... ".. charge what the market will bear ".... Some how the price just got... out of hand.. perhaps blame the baby boomers at the time...... no kids... fat bank account and the HD bean counters cranked the spend wheel.... I had a HD salesman ..when I told him I couldn't afford the bike.. he said to take out a 2nd mortgage ! ..…. Read HD makes more on product marketing then motorcycles.... every time Hot Wheels does a HD... $1.00 for the HD coffers....
I always had a soft spot for a old flattie..... and since I'm approaching my " golden years ".... I bought one...... paid more for it then my (then) new 08' Ranger (great truck)… Oh.. does that make me a … "boomer "...
I don't know what's going to happen to HD.... Utube is full of doom and gloom..... perhaps move all operations across the pond.. ? cheaper labor... ?....
 
Made in America? Harley's Milwaukee operation isn't much more than an assembly plant for foreign-made components: carbs by Mikuni, forks by Showa, ignition by Hitachi, pistons and who knows what other engine parts made in Mexico. Maybe the frames are still welded up in the US so Hardly can claim to produce "American Iron?"
Everyone knows this....and they followed the automotive industry. Just like you can't claim Chevy or Ford is American-made, but they are all a made-in-America brand...my main point. Harley was a genius at building upon their brand and what it stood for....which any good company does.
 
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