Starter not disengaging?

[bosco659]

When I first got my ‘76 it had starter issues. I replaced the gear, squeezed the spring clip in a vise and now it’s engages 100% of the time. Thanks for the tip on fixing this. This was one of two issues. The second issue is once the engine starts and the starter button is released, it sounds like the starter gear (S) remains engaged for a couple of seconds. I’m thinking either the gear is “stuck” in place momentarily or the starter motor continues to remain engaged for a couple of seconds.
I’m away from the bike right now but when I get back to it I’ll try probing around with a test light to see if I can find an electrical gremlin that’s hanging up in the starter circuit.
Any intel on this would be appreciated. Perhaps I can post a video of the noise. I’ll try that as well when I get back.

 

[gggGary]

Do you still have the starter "safety relay"?
One of it's lesser understood functions is disengaging the starter as soon as the motor "catches" I've tried both ways, My, your thumb cannot be as quick as the circuit in releasing power to the starter. It seems that if the starter gear train gets spun up with the motor, the bendix is much more likely to hang causing that run on. On my bikes the relay stays in place.

 

[bosco659]

The relay is physically there but I’m not sure if it’s working properly. If it is pooched would the starter not work at all? Test procedure for tge relay? Thx

 

[gggGary]

I think it does not DISCONNECT if pooched. It uses the yellow wire from the alternator to open the starter circuit via a m/l 6 volt AC relay.
Guess the quick test would be hitting the starter button with the motor running in neutral. I'd try it, others mebbie not....

 

[bosco659]

I think it does not DISCONNECT if pooched. It uses the yellow wire from the alternator to open the starter circuit via a m/l 6 volt AC relay.
Guess the quick test would be hitting the starter button with the motor running in neutral. I'd try it, others mebbie not....

Thanks I’ll investigate when I get back. Maybe if I start it and while running, disconnect the wire from the solenoid to the starter then put a meter or test light on the empty solenoid terminal and hit the starter button?

 

[5twins]

It might be easier to test the R/W wire coming out of the safety relay and running to the solenoid. With the key on, motor not running, it should be sending power to the solenoid. Once the motor is running, it should stop.

 

[bosco659]

It might be easier to test the R/W wire coming out of the safety relay and running to the solenoid. With the key on, motor not running, it should be sending power to the solenoid. Once the motor is running, it should stop.

Ok sounds good. Easy way is a good thing. I’ll check it out when I get back. Thx.

 

[XSLeo]

On gthe bendix there are two springs. The wish bone spring holds the gears so it moves on the line to engage the gears. There is a return spring. It pushes on the gears to disengage them.
If this spring is weak it won't disengage the gears as quickly as they should.
On my 75 I stretched this spring a bit to give it more push. The gears disengage better . If the temperature is very cool to cold the thicker the oil. This thicker oil tends to hold thing in place. This can also cause what you are hearing.
Doing the electrical checks won't hurt. It's easier to do them than pulling the cover off to tension the return spring.Leo

 

[5twins]

I don't think it's that little return spring. I don't have one installed at all on my '78 and it doesn't stick engaged. Pamcopete recommended removing it for better engagement but honestly, I don't notice any difference. I'll probably put it back in someday.

 

[bosco659]

Thx I’ll do the electrical checks first. Too bad I didn’t think about the return spring when I had it apart. The noise is the same with a hot and cold engine.

 

[bosco659]

Old post, but lingering problem. Now that the weather is starting to cooperate I can do some testing. Forgot to mention the bike has a PMA so I don’t know how the starter safety relay is wired in. Will check today. Thx

 

[bosco659]

It might be easier to test the R/W wire coming out of the safety relay and running to the solenoid. With the key on, motor not running, it should be sending power to the solenoid. Once the motor is running, it should stop.

Checked this today and on constantly R/W wire had constant power. Have to trace the yellow wire to see if it’s hooked up somewhere. With a regular stator, where is the plug for the SSR? Thx

 

[5twins]

The original loom and plug from the alternator ran up the back side of the main frame backbone tube and connected into the harness about at the top of the carbs. The yellow sensor wire was separate from the alternator plug .....

 

[bosco659]

Thx I’ll have a look tomorrow. Since I have a PMA I’m suspecting that some of this will be gone.

 

[Rasputin]

I would suggest that using a PMA, the output for the safety relay will be missing.

 

[MaxPete]

Hi All:

I was surfing around on YouTube and found a channel called Cafe Racer Garage. The guy was debating about building a cafe from a Yamaha XV750 but his key problem was a horrible noise coming from the starter…..(sound familiar?)

So he did a bunch of research and found that, it has exactly the same wishbone / hair clip spring that has bedevilled so many of us in the XS650 community.

He has come up with a very interesting mod to keep the spring tight - check out this video at about 6:20.

Has anybody else ever tied this little clippy thing?

 

[timbeck]

"Good find Pete. Now all we need is someone to fab up a bunch of little aluminum "clippy things".........

tim

 

[gggGary]

They sell "starter kits" for the Viragos, there's a few gotcha's in that design. I installed one during a rehab job and it seemed to do the trick.

 

[bosco659]

Thx Pete, watched the vid. The aluminum thingy looks like a cool idea. Is there space in our crankcase for that piece? Can’t recall. If this aluminum piece would eliminate the need to squish the wishbone, it would be a nice fix. If squeezing the clip is still required, then the aluminum piece won’t necessarily fit properly on everyone’s modified clip. If one were to produce this item, I’d suggest that it best be produced as a matched set to ensure proper tension and performance. My clip had been squeezed and although I get consistent engagement, the annoying “run on” noise persists.

My ‘79 starter works flawlessly without any noise. Wonder if I should swap the components into the ‘76 to see if the noise disappears?

Would be nice to find the follow up video to see if he hot rid of the noise altogether. I’ll search later. Maybe there’s still hope.

 

[MaxPete]

I think the starter noise is a hit and miss thing. My ‘76C makes from time to time but it always starts; the ‘78E is much more reliable and I don’t think it has ever made the “spoon down a garburator” noise while the ‘81SG would hardly ever start until I put a new hair clippy on it.

The other thing I noted is that when I did the ‘81SG (a very easy job BTW), is that the clip that I took out was made of very thin wire and thus, quite weak while an OEM clip that I found was much thicker and stiffer (no jokes please boys…). I actually bought a couple of clips from Mikes and as I recall it, one of them was pretty good too (thick wire and pretty stiff but the other, while made of thick wire, didn’t fit as tightly and so it wouldn’t have worked.

I used the “fish scale” test and some of the clips were as much as 11 lbs of pull while others were well below the optimum 6 lbs which people have found works well. You can read all about in my thread entitled:

Build Thread...Special to Cafe Bike​

starting about post #257

Pete