permanent magnet

jefft

XS650 Junkie
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Just installed a permanent magnet set up. Have Boyer and Accel batteryless capicator, kick only. Haven't been able to get it started yet. I think the Boyer requires a certain amount of juice to get started. How does capacitor get enough power for initial start? The engine hasn't been started yet and the capicator hasn't stored any energy yet. Can someone elaborate on this?
Jefft
 
when you kick the kick start it charges the capacitor. the capacitor in effect loads up a voltage over the kicks and then discharges into the ignition to fire. that's the short scoop of it.
 
I have kicked it repeatedly and its now showing a whooping .01 volts. How many kicks should this take before I got some juice in the capacitor? Thanks for the reply.
jefft
 
Jeff slip in a small 12 volt battery to se if it will start. I am going to run two 35000 micro farad wired in parallel
 
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I know some capacitor bikes need the ignition turned off for a few kicks before opening it to the ignition. Are you kicking it with the system turned on or charging the capacitor before turning the ignition on to fire the bike? Once the bike gets running I don't think that'll be necessary anymore. If you are trying to start it with the ignition on you won't see any voltages at the capacitor because it is dumping the power to the ignition until the motor stops spinning then drains.
 
Your right I have been kicking with the ign on. I will try with off and see what happens. I think everything else is ok as the set up was very easy.
jefft
 
Danm. You guys are smart. I turned that key off and kicked it about 20 times and I'll be darn if it isn't showing over 12 volts at the capacitor. Yee ha. Electrical drives me crazy. Thanks for that suggestion. I was working up a sweat.
jefft
 
Haven't gotten it to fire up yet but I may need to check the timeing again. What I do notice is once I have kicked it a few times with key off and check the voltage which is about 13 volts, is that once you turn the key on and kick, the voltage goes back to 0 pretty quick. Actually within a few kicks.
Jefft
 
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It looks as though the capacitor discharges even just setting there for a few minutes with the key off. Is this "key off kick a few times then key on to start" something I will have to do each time I start the bike. I thought a capacitor would store energy for a longer period of time then that.
jefft
 
The capacitor holds very little charge. Less than what it takes to charge the ignition coil.

The ignition coil pulls about 4 amps when it is charging. Its not a constant draw. On a points bike the duty cycle is about 50%, meaning that the coil is charging half the time. I'm not sure what the duty cycle of the Boyer is at kicking speed but imagine it would be less than 50%.

At kicking speeds, the output of the alternator is low. Not enough to deliver 4 amps to the ignition when it needs it. When the alternator is not charging the coil it can charge the capacitor. The capacitor alone can not store enough power to charge the coil. When the ignition needs power it can draw it from both the alternator and capacitor. Which will drain the capacitor.

It would seem that simply using a larger capacitor would fix everything, but that only works to a point. Remember that the alternator output is low at kicking speeds so it won't be able to charge a super huge capacitor in the short time between ignition dwell.

Your best bet for a batteryless system is energy conservation. If you haven't already done it then wire up a Start Mode switch that will disconnect everything but the ignition when starting. Eliminate everything that is not absolutely necessary and replace bulbs with LEDs. These last two won't help with starting, since you switch them off, but it could prevent the bike from dying when you switch everything back on.

A more efficient ignition will do wonders. With my HEI ignition, I don't even have to turn off the headlight when starting. It only has about 8% duty at low speeds so it can get most of it's charge from a small capacitor. The capacitor charges for 92% of the time so it is guaranteed a full charge, even with the lights on.
 
Where does one find a start mode switch? Also ignition system is going to work to best with a PMA and capacitor?
jefft
 
Where does one find a start mode switch?
jefft

I'm sorry, that wasn't meant as a proper name. All you need is a toggle switch. The ignition gets power directly from the charging system, run everything else through a toggle switch. Flip the switch off when starting, that way all power goes to the ignition. Once the motor is running, flip the switch back on so you have lights.
 
Ok, I may try that. I also have a small cigarette pack size battery. Would somehow running that in conjunction with the capacitor cure the problem? If so how would you wire that into the system? Was a little skeptical of this PMA with a capacitor from the get go. Bought the Accel capacitor because I thought it was large enough to handle it. Main reason for trying it was I wanted to get rid of that big battery. Bike has no electric start, no turn signals, just bare mininum. Seems capacitor is drained in a couple kicks with key on.
Jefft
 
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from memory a boyer needs 7 or 8 volts to work. id probably swap the capacitor for a battery until you get it running. maybe sort out a few bugs 1st, then have a crack at the cap again. my bike has no kick-elec start and no battery, starts with a push pretty easx
 
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