G&L choppers

I've tried to be patient but have had virtually no communication with Rich since the build began. I had hoped to make some design changes early on but never received a response. I realize there are bound to be setbacks during the building process too and I usually assume whatever it is, will take twice as long and cost twice as much as you planned on.

That being said, I think I've been very patient till this point. I understand building a bike takes time, however, I'd be a lot more understanding if there was a little more communication.

I'm sure he has good intentions...
Rich comes highly recommended, has a great reputation for being a top builder and hopefully he's still hard at work but I just need to know where I stand.

Thanks for advice and the support, I do appreciate it.

I have noticed that most of the better known 650 builders were posting pictures quite often of their builds when they first got started and established a website. Then, there was nothing new being posted. Its been the same old bikes now for a long time. I check their websites every few months and its just the same old stuff. I used to enjoy seeing what they would regularly come up with in the way of a new build.
jefft

donmillerx said:

As Gordon mentioned, it hasn't been 7 or 8 months... it's been a YEAR & 8 months.

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I had assumed that was a typo, should have listened to Benny Hill about "assume".
That changes things. Especially with your mention of trying to change the direction of the build with no response from the builder. I would be treating this as straight up theft, as that is what it sounds like to me. At this point I would be having a lawyer contact them.

jefft said:

I have noticed that most of the better known 650 builders were posting pictures quite often of their builds when they first got started and established a website. Then, there was nothing new being posted. Its been the same old bikes now for a long time. I check their websites every few months and its just the same old stuff. I used to enjoy seeing what they would regularly come up with in the way of a new build.
jefft

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[hyjack]
While I do agree with this to a point you also have to take into consideration that a builder has to build what the customer wants, and is willing to pay for. Most customers want a standard hardtail, sporty tank, and one of 3 or 4 sets of pipes. The only thing that really differs a lot on most "Johnny Average" builds are bars, controls, seat, and paint. Innovative it is not, but it is easy to build in a jig and sells well for what most people are willing to spend.

I'm sure 99% of builders would rather be doing a lot more creative work, but that work costs more, takes longer, and cuts further into the already select group of customers.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while most of these builders have gained popularity, and increased sales, its still within a small group of enthusiasts, and that expansion, most of the time, is not enough to expand the shops manpower while still retaining the profit margins most new businesses like to see. So while they may be building more, there is usually the same number of people doing the actual building at the shop. Throw into the mix the addition of a stand alone weld on hardtail and a few other smaller goodies, and most of your shop time can easily be taken up just fabbing these parts to ship off on their own.

There is a huge leap from offering these items/services on a part time, a few items here and there basis, and turning it into a full time business.
[/hyjack]

I ordered my forward controls from them. This was after two weeks of emailing and calling to see if they even make them anymore. After I finally got hold of Rich, he told me it would be about a week to make. After a couple weeks, I started calling and emailing again. Finally I get hold of him and told me they are mostly done, just waiting on aluminum stock to finish. So about six weeks later, I finally got them to me.

I'm not sure when you ordered or finally received your forward controls but just the fact that G&L is even taking on new part orders at this point surprises me.

I was recently contacted by (3) other guys, all waiting over a year & a half on a complete build from G&L. One of which, claims to have been waiting over 28 months.

It doesn't look good.

I think,like the other guy said,now would be a good time to get a lawyer in the mix,if for no better reason than to get "your foot in the door"in case of bankruptcy action so at least you can get your bike back,probably untouched. lha

As I have said, customer service is key. It will be a big part of who the last man standing is over the long haul. I don't know if its all businessess or just the motorcycle mechanic trade. I had always looked for a mechanic I could depend on to do the work I needed and in a timely manner. I have taken recommendations from others and tried to seek out a good mechanic on my own in the past. Without fail, I have always ended up with was a guy who would take my bike in for repair and would put it behind other jobs for weeks on end. It wasn't becasue they didn't have the necessary parts, they just seem to always kept putting new jobs in front of mine. That has lead me to trying to as much as I can myself.
jefft

Look i am not going to start this defending anyone because i was the the guy also not too long ago that was getting bashed for poor work stealing money and all the good things that people can beleave. My shop went under because of greed and trying to be bigger than i could handle . When you are a small shop and do two bikes a year you can handle it but when you got orders of 8 bikes a month you are way over you head and just spend money like its water to get the extra help bigger shop more equipment on and on and on. Been there and now nothing. I have owned many shops and did well but these times now with high rent bigger operating bills and good people to help is tuff. I built 26 bikes in the last 2 1/2 years and paid back on 6 bikes that i could not build and could not give away there contract to build because nobody want to build them I tried everyone. I know guys that are waiting on frames/ builds and have been waiting for over a year. I HAVE NO EXCUSE I just could not build fast enough. I think most shops won't amit that they are over there head and won't amit that they build the big buck bikes first. If you were a builder would you build the $4000.00 bike or the $20,000.00 bike both may take close to the same time but lets be hounest. You are going where the money is to keep your shop open. It kills me that i will never build like i did in the past and i still get emails from guys who want builds and i send them to others and who knows if they ever get built. I have built bikes that have taken me over a year to build because of style /parts/paint/and i have built bikes in three days. Does it make the 1 year bike any better than the 3 day bike NO!!!!
Again i am not taking any sides but if you never been in a builders shoes try it sometime and load the gun because its the only way out. 8 bikes a month EACH $4000.00 to build do the math do you really think i wanted to walk away.
SORRY IF I AM PISSING ANYONE OFF BUT ITS THE TRUTH!
I turned 60 on NOV 16th this year Fighting CANCER that is threwout my body because of things that i inhaled over the years building bikes and cars for people like you guys. Would i do it again HELL YES because I AM A BUILDER. So don't sit on your ass!!!! LEARN how to build and be proud of what you have done.

I think there is a very simple way to avoid a lot of grief with these builds. Simply telling the customer you can't take on the work until you can actually take on the work. It only adds to a lot of fallout when you accept the work and then stall the customer for months on end. Your not going to gain any following by not being straight up and realistic about your own capability.
jefft

You know in a perfect world you are 100% right
But when you have overhead/ employees /bills to keep your shop going and to put food on the table you cannot make that choice or let that customer go to another place . So you lie a little to make everyone happy. Happens everyday in all business . People just won't own it. Have you ever called into work and said i am sick won't be there today and theres nothing wrong with you and even give the sick voice on the phone same little LIE!!!!
All i am pointing out is all of us are not bad guys just trying to make a buck and keep everyone happy but when your shop grows and you can't keep up with it everyone want to tar and feather you and say how bad of a job you are doing. It happens to everyone sooner or later and if you don't think so wait and see. Cannot please everyone.In the past 3 months i have read of more than 3 builders/suppliers that got bad mouthed because there work or product pissed someone off. Did anyone read how many good things that they built or sold???? Everyone wants to jump on the band wagon on the bad because now a days you can say anything you want on the internet and hide behind your keyboard.
Lets give some of these guys there just dues on the good too.I never had no one hold my hand and teach me how to run a shop or have the money to go to school to learn business i did it by the seat of my pants and take whatever lumps that came my way and after 40 years in the motorcycle industry i got plenty of lumps on my head.

Sorry but 1year+ with no product and no reply from the shop is theft in my book. Some customers have stated that multiple attempts have been made to alter the build direction, check for progress, or simply cancel the build/order, with NO response from the shop at all. Just because you know who took your property and/or money, don't mean it isn't theft.

A shop knows when it is beyond its capability to deliver on contracted work, failure to do so in a reasonable timeline, or without communication, is simply poor ethics. If you know you cant deliver, swallow some damned pride and reach out to the customers who entrusted you with their property and money, refuse to take on new work, or let them know in writing what the extended timeline is and make sure this new timeline is acceptable to the customer.

Since when is it a customers responsibility to make sure a shop/business has a manageable workload and is organised and run responsibly?

Failure to exercise, or fight for, your rights will always lead to your not having any. They have theirs, and rest assured they will fight to keep themselves "safe".

Simply because you run a shop don't alleviate you from your responsibility to do the right thing. Again, the only way any shop/business can get away with this sort of thing is if/when its customers allow them to. If it was the shop owner who sent you his property and never heard from you or saw his property and/or money returned, would it be acceptable to him? No, and BET that his lawyers would be banging at your door! Don't allow it to be acceptable from them, its really that simple.

Theft of $4,000+property = a pretty decent legal penalty. Have a lawyer shoot the shop an email, a phone call, and a letter. Sit back and watch how fast you get a reply. That will prove, in and of itself, that the time to reply to you IS managable, it is simply that they do not feel the need to do so. Your going to sit back and let them do whatever they want, just like everyone else. Stand up for whats right, smack that high horse out from under them, and get your bike, money, and time, to someone who deserves it.

Its your life man, all the rest of the people are just in it. Take charge and get what you want done, done.

DADDYGCYCLES said:

Did anyone read how many good things that they built or sold???? Everyone wants to jump on the band wagon on the bad because now a days you can say anything you want on the internet and hide behind your keyboard.
Lets give some of these guys there just dues on the good too.

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One aww shit, cancels out a whole lot of 'atta-boys. That's just how life works. I could understand if this were in regards to a faulty/blemished product, or something similar, but not in regards to failure to deliver multiple products, or even acknowledge a customer, after 1year+. This has nothing to do with their other work.

I think any rational person can tell the difference between someone raging over a mishap or one defective product, and things like this that are legitimate complaints.

And where do you draw the line with past performance outweighing current? Would you hand over your bike, $4,000, and wait a year+ without so much as a word from the people who have it? (it shouldnt matter if you'd have to outsource work or not)

I think the customers who have had this happen to them have every right to be keyboard commandos here. I'd want to know this sort of thing before sending my hard earned money off to these people.

I have a tail from G&L and I think I got lucky because I actually flew it out to him. I happened to heading to CO Springs for a biz trip, so I hacked up my frame, boxed it, labled it as a bicycle and threw it on a Southwest flight. I have to admit, when I dropped it off and met him I was surprised. He is a one man shop and there were what seemed to be hundreds of frames in waiting with two or three on jigs being worked on. His work is top notch...and I do like the clunkyness of the drops. I received mine, at my door in NC at exactly 6 weeks. There are pics of it under the "Lounge"
No Matter...As was mentioned earlier, poor customer service is poor customer service...no excuses. He should have been up front about time.

I was in business as a contractor on South Padre Island until having a severe auto accident.I juggled jobs like a circus performer,but always kept going,telling clients that I would have to wait a while,as I was very busy. Some of them[rich ones] informed me that I "had" to get started the next day.Needless to say,the price for that service doubled,as I had to work 15 hours a day,7 days a week.The bottom line is that I got every job done,at the cost to me and my employees and subcontractors.I would never take on so much work that everyone is dis-satisfied,even the ones that were getting their work done. I actually had calls at 10:30 at night wanting me to come out to change a light bulb,that night. I went. lha

There is the point a one man shop can't get all the work done fast. Never going to happen. I know there are a lot of guys who won't send money to a shop and sit and wait but there are more than you would think that have no way to do it and will give up the money. Do i think its right NO! But in business today you fight to survive. You may think you know the law and it works both ways for the builder and the person getting the bike built. Most states are $5000.00 or less small claims court. Getting a lawyer doesn't get you to third base only second and maybe like the guy said he flew out there met the guy face to face seen the shop and still had him do the work. So that tells you something. I have had people sue/ scream/ call every 5 mins did that get the bike built NO i was in way over my head and took on too much work for the shop size. You gave $4000.00 on the build how much was the bike and did you sign a contract to protect you both. All i am saying is don't judge by what people type and jump on the bashing wagon. If you feel that you are really being taken for a ride call better business service in that area and ask them to send someone to see if the shop is running under the guidelines because someone did it to me and they didn't tell me i was going to jail they helped me fix my problem and it was my doing to close my shop because i had enough. This is the problem with internet you can make yourself look bigger than you are and skate past a lot of rules. I don't think this is that case a lot of shops are just too far over there heads in back work. Years ago people would wait a year for a build now everyone wants it yesterday. Stay small and do two bikes a year and turn away everyone and you still will get on a board saying you can't do the work because you are turning it away. Building bikes/Hot Rods is a lost art only old farts like me have stayed in it because it was the only thing i new. Go to school for bikes you don't want to open a chopper shop you want the big bucks working for a dealer. Shops are tough in this time and it shows. This is a very tough deal to out source work in with your name on it and you standing behind it. I tried and nobody wanted the work its not construction or painting a house many many legal bullshit with it and if you never owned a shop you will never get it.
Sorry not bashing your business its tough too i am sure but you are not putting people on something to ride very different.

I work at a store with a huge inventory, own a business and do side work as well.
I also live in a small town with a lot of talkers. One thing I learned is that if you piss one off, you've pissed them all off.
I'm not going to argue, but if you have any idea of how to run a business, and most important, how your business is running, then you can take one look at your timeline and work load and be able to tell if you can accomplish a task in the time alloted. PERIOD!!!!
You say 1 month, then it better fucking be one month. For every customer you lose, you lose 5 more and 10 more hear about it. That's why all these hack shops are gone. PERIOD!!!
I even account for how long it takes me to sweep up.
If you can't do it, then don't take on the job!!!!!!!
Now, I will say that customers can lie, employees will up and leave, shit happens, but you better be able to fix it...quick. If you do not have the ability to do this, then you need to go ask for some help. There are tons of resources out there to help in every possible trade and there is never a stupid question.
I have had shops tell me that it will take *blank* long to do a project. OK, good. I'll be back. I'll even allow some time extra, not a problem. Tell me it's gonna take an extra *blank*? Thanks for telling me, no problem.
BUT if you tell me something, then don't do it or you don't call me after I've called/emailed 1,000 times and I walk into that damn place and your sitting on your ass or I spot your dumb ass parked at a bar at 1pm, your done!
I will spend all my time running your name up the shit pole.
It's basic customer service and taking pride in your business and the growth of your business. I have sat in numerous free classes, (key word free) held at the local business association to learn how to do something, add potential customers, advertising, ect.
Just putting out the word that, "Due to work overload we will not be accepting new contracts or customers. Our current customers need our complete attention and we will let you know when we will be back on line".
Is that that hard?
You would surrprised how understanding and forgiving people are if you are up-front and communicate with them. How many times have you gone to a store and it's closed, but the "hours" sign say's it should be open and there is no "out to lunch" sign? Pisses a lot of people off, believe me.

Brother and Little bill you nailed it. Im a one man shop and its tough. You have to juggle a million things. I dont get anywhere near the work load that others probably get but I also schedule my jobs in and I do whatever it takes to get each job out in the estimated time. If I have to work 7 days a week I do.
I had a great experience with G&L. He told me 6 weeks and I got my tail in 6 1/2 weeks. That to me is a perfect transaction. Unfortunately it sounds like since then(2or3years ago) things have changed. Sounds like he is overwhelmed with work. There are only two things that you can do in that situation. Hire skilled help to get you back on track or stop taking in work till you are caught up. You cant keep taking work in if you cant get out what is there PERIOD!

I've never dealt with him, I'm not talking about him, I'm simply pointing out general business facts.
I tried to be nice when I first opened and got screwed on several special orders. Then, when I asked for 50% down on special orders, I had many people get pissy with me. Well, I'm sorry. But I told them why and never got screwed again. If someone asked me to order something I would never, ever tell them I could unless I was 100% sure I could get it. Just little things like that go a long way in customer relations.
You can run a very profitably small business with limited man power if you know how to use your time accordingly. Very few business' started with 1,000 people and a warehouse full of parts.
It takes time, long hours, no pay, and, now listen folks 'cuz here it come....CUSTOMERS!! Repeat customers!!!!
Without them coming to you, you will lose. Remember who pays for the shit you peddle.

I can't say that I have ever run a fabrication shop but I can say that I owned and ran a tattoo shop in Oregon quite a few years ago. It was one of the hardest things to do but if I couldn't fit another customer in with all of my other appiontments, without sacrifcing the quality of work I was doing, then I just had to tell them it wasn't going to happen until such and such a time, usually up to 2 weeks later. I was working as many 16 hours a day 6 days a week and had to turn people away. Most were more than happy to wait but some went to other shops because they couldn't wait. Alot of the ones that couldn't wait were back later booking an appointment 3 weeks out to get their work touched up or out right fixed because someone else royaly screwed it up. Sometimes it is just better to be up front and honest about the situation, rather than blowing smoke up your customers asses and really pissing people off. I no longer tattoo because I got burnt out on it from working such long hours and the certification process is so much different in mississippi. I now do maintenance and installs of car wash equipment all along the gulf coast, once again working for myself and working to many hours to really enjoy. Maybe one of these days I will learn and get a 9-5 job and take it easy in life. Just my 2 cents.