G&L choppers

I'm not sure how to respond to all the different posts here but thanks again for all the advice & feedback from everyone, I appreciate it.

It's obvious, it's not my intent to hurt anyone's business or ruin anybody's reputation.
I'm not "bad-mouthing G&L" or "hiding behind a keyboard" - far from it.

I don't think anybody's "jumping on the bandwagon" and I kind of think these companies have gotten their "just dues" when we hand over our cash.

The $4,000 down-payment was roughly half (50%) of the total build price and we did sign a contract, although without a legitimate date for completion.

I knew he was busy and I'd be waiting a while so I think I've been extremely patient so far...
but there's a fine line between "cutting a guy some slack" and just getting the run-around.

The only reason I joined this forum a while ago was because of G&L Choppers. I am the one Mr. Miller talked about waiting for 28 months.

August 2009 Richard Ford and I reached an agreement on a build and I sent half the cost which came out to be $3300 and change. I still have the USPS money order copies. I was told that it would be done that December, I initially thought "wow, great turn-around".

I was in the barracks room at Camp Lejeune that December when I spoke with Mr. Ford. He reiterated what I told him months prior; that I would be in training the month of December and difficult to reach. He notified me that my bike was next on the lift.

Mr. Ford and I were in contact for the first 6 months fairly regularly. Then out of the blue all contact was lost for about 8 months. I made phone calls and sent emails, none of which were answered. I was surprised one day by an email from Rich explaining some recent difficulties he had come across. I am no stranger to hard times so I was more than understanding and forgiving. A few months passed before I sent another email, it went unanswered. More emails were sent, more time passed, and frustrations grew. Just recently I sent a very short and less than tasteful email to Mr. Ford which got answered promptly. It was full of apologies and aggravation.

I am in no way a bike builder. I have stripped a few bikes down to their frame and rebuilt them to my liking, but I can't do what so many of you can. However, what I do know is a bike can't be built in just two 30 minute episodes on the discovery channel, it takes time.........But how much time? I think 28 months is too much.

During this whole process I sought legal help from one of my unit's attorneys. He said he would call Mr. Ford and send a memorandum. Most of theses military lawyers that represent us deal with child custody, divorce, and wills. I'm not sure how far he got with the matter but I know Mr. Ford told me he never received a letter from any lawyer.

I am in no way bashing Mr. Ford, I hope his health and business are getting back on track. I wish this ordeal and others like mine does not tarnish his business or name. I think that he has fallen into a huge pile of shit and just needs that one moment to come out smelling like a fresh bed of roses.......However, after 28 months......I JUST WANT MY FU(K*NG MONEY OR BIKE!

This is my warning to anyone who may read this. I have every email saved from Mr. Ford and I could have probably made this post fill an entire page with all the little details....I'm just trying to help everyone else out before they start having to go through what Don and a few others are going through right now. I've dealt with leathersmiths, fabricators and so many other walks of life concerning parts. I know good work takes time. However, good communication is half the business.

One more thing I forgot to add:

For anyone having problems with G&L choppers please shoot me a PM with your email. I have been in contact with a few other people and we keep each other in the loop if Rich contacts us.

I have been advised from others that have had problems with builders/fabricators/suppliers to get a class action going. Since Mr. Ford only takes money orders and most have used the united states postal service.......that makes this a federal matter. Granted there are a bunch more legal crap to it than that we have to start somewhere.

Wow now we got the blood boiling and i an not getting on here to piss people off just give you the truth from a builders side and try to give you a way to get your money or have the build done and in no way bash one or more than one company. NOT MY INTENT. It doesn't matter if you are having something built bought large shop small show when it comes to business all that is out the window. Buy a new car YOU JUST GOT SCREWED happens everyday NO CUSTOMER SERVICE THERE. Sales people are there to sell we all did it and had bad experences.
If you are a small shop like i said STAY SMALL and you can get the work done or get some fast help to get it done and working 23 out of 24 hours a day puts you OUT OF BUSINESS not fix the problem. Class action suite Won't work SORRY. BETTER BUISNESS SERVICE does help for some reason the people who work there are like pit bulls and really scare the shit out of you BUT like i said i was there also over my head and you can't hire bodys to do work on a bike builds to get finished IT DOESN'T WORK POOR WORKMAN SHIP CORNERS CUT to get it done. I started 5 years ago doing these builds out of a little garage did well but then people started to see my bikes and i did what everyone else was doing paid to have a web site and bam. Started my building 7 days a week 15 hours a day sometimes working all night BUT NOW i am too small got orders up my ass took the money deposits no where near what you gave but still i took it. Couldn't get a shop in NY that was under $3500.00 a month moved my hole family to another state and first built a shop behind my buddys home but kept getting bigger not enough room. Doing repairs/builds/Drag Race Motors needed bigger shop went into 20 car shop signed this big lease with 10 million in insurance 4 guys 5 guys 7 guys on pay role. Now i can get all the stuff out of storage bins at $150.00 a month 9 of them.
NOW i am way over my head need 4 bikes a month to sell or everyone doesn't get paid.
Get the picture its a upward high i am doing GREAT THEN the bottom falls out. MONEY MONEY going going GONE!!! Had a partner because you cannot do it alone and mine was a very good friend of 25 years but MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT!!! Story goes don't trust anyone. So thats me and maybe there are others out there that are having same problem. CUSTOMER SEVICE is very important in any business BUT you guys just don't get it this is not a SMALL Business anymore WORLD WIDE WEB has put us over the top and your market is LARGE. I did build 26 bikes and got them to customers BUT I FAILED on 6 and no matter what that was 6 people who wanted bikes so the 26 seems not to count.
NOT to piss you off BUT!!!!
Get on a plane and tell him you are coming for your money and your bike thats what it sounds like that this thread is heading because if you were going against me and i been threw the legal system i can hang you up for years and still all you are getting back is your money deposit. Its small claims court NO FEDRAL COURT you signed a contract and with no completion date and the WORD CUSTOM MOTORCYCLE all you get is your money back. Sorry i may sound like a SCUM BAG but i am going to tell you the truth from experance and i lost everything with just trying to build some bikes FUNNY HUH just trying to make some people happy.. Also do you know if that shop belly's up and claims bank rup YOU GET NOTHING That was one of the things the Better Business told me to do I DIDN't and started to give all that i had deposits for there money back and i am still paying back until everyone gets there money back. I may sound like a SCUM BAG but i was in business a long time over 35 years and have maybe some experence in this industry. Just try and do the right thing and BASHING on the internet only puts a nail in your coffin not his he has ways out.
Wish everyone well and have a nice XMAS and hope all the other builders out there read this tread because it has become to common on web sites to BASH and use your finger muscles and not know the whole story or truth.
Dude if you want any info from me private pm me and i will give you my email and number. I had the year from hell same story different players.

I am not pointing at G&L, I don't know the story, but as for bashing shops, I'm not using my finger to bash anyone. People bash themselves. If the shoe fits. Good shops are still around, bad shops are not. You say call the BBB? Well how do you think they rate business'? By people complaining. It's a sad fact that bad news is the only news you hear. It's a sad fact that no one gets the recognition they deserve. But that's the facts. That's why I don't own a motorcycle shop, because I know I cant do it correctly. I know my limits and capabilities. It's the hacks that try to open some shop and play "customizer", take peoples money and can't finish the job. I'll say it to their wanna be custom shop fucking faces. If the asses can't handle the job, then they need to get out of the business. It's a bitch ass move to not call a customer back when they have their money.
And as for websites, same thing. Don't have one if you cant handle it. You know you will have 100 phone calls a day from people who are not serious. If Jesse James and all those other famous builders are going under, then why the hell would someone think they could get rich quick building bikes?

And another thing. There are tons of shops that I will never go to because of shit like this. It's people who complain that weed out these shops. If people didn't complain then these shops would be ripping off more people. That's the best thing about the internet, not the hiding behind a computer, but informing others about shit shops and everything else. If someone asked me my honest opinion about a shop I'll give it. If the potential customer asks 20 people and gets 20 negatives, then what? You think it's because we are bashing with our fingers? No, it's the shops fault if they have pissed so many people off.
As a person who researches every little thing, I'll tell ya. I appreciate reading people's experiences. This isn't some small po-dunk town with one shop. So, all these business' that think they are in a corner market, monopolizing a niche, then they better learn that this is the age of the internet and you're gonna have to recognize it's affect on your business. I can buy the same bars, pegs, lights, kits, ect from about 20 places with one click of my shop bashing finger.
So what are gonna do to get my business?
Plain and simple. It all boils down to customer satisfaction.

Too bad that people seemed to get the raw deal with G&L. Looks like the last bike they show built on the website ended up here in South Florida. I had the job of working on it a few times so it could be ridden. I really like the looks of it. The welding was great. I did find quite a few design flaws that make it a nightmare to service and a few bugs that seem like it was thought out by a first time builder though. The owner bought it from the website and paid good money to have it shipped. It came with many issues that fell under the used motor clause. They were good about working with him, sending parts that I could use to get it working for him. Eventually I got the bike running enough so he could drive it but it still has lots of issues that will need to be dialed in.

The biggest flaw here was the owner had little or no mechanical experience. Custom and older bike combos need to be ridden and owned by someone who knows how to fix stuff on a regular basis. It is not a new Honda with a warranty. They take a good ear and eye to watch for signs of what needs attention. I had the notion of opening a shop to work on older bikes. After crunching numbers I decided to stay in my 2 car garage and use it on a very limited basis for outside work. I constantly get others asking me to work on thier bikes or to build one for them. I always throw them a fast quote on what it will cost and they give me the sour face and that is then end of our talks most time. I am not fast or cheap, but I do great work at my pace. Most riders who have own or want old bikes tend to be frugal spenders. That is okay, you just need to own tools and learn how to do you own work. I can't imagine how any shop stays open nowdays. The overhead that comes with the facilty and business regs is a sure recipe for failure. The smaller the better. I had a 1 man boat service and repair shop in the early 90s. Did very well, just hated living in a warehouse all day. Times have changed. If you want to own and ride a classic you better learn how to do most everything yourself, or get to your real job and save to pay someone good for quality service. Money or talent and experince is a requirement with any old piece of machinery that keeps going.

Building bikes, doing tattoos, baking cookies, or whatever the hell you do for a living. It doesn't make a difference. If you take money from a customer to complete a job you are obligated to do that job or give them their money back. Yes daddyG , people get ripped off all the time in business deals and transactions. Does it make it ok? I'm not going to sit here and play arm chair quarterback to what anyone does in their business because what do I know? I have my own small business to try and keep a float in these tough times. I will however say, I bend over backwards to make sure my customers leave happy. Every insurance job that comes through my doors I treat like it's my car or my bike and I do the best work in the agreed time frame for the price quoted. Every custom paint job I lay down is to the best of my ability. I don't half ass, cut corners or say good enough ever. I am in a tiny two bay shop grinding it out and I have been for more then a few years. I haven't made the move to a better shop because I refuse to do business that compromises evrything I've worked so hard to build. I would rather close then do some of the shit I have read here. At the end of the day, all u have is your reputation. What's it worth to you? I'm not bashing anyone either and yes there are some on the intertoobs that like to talk trash but you will notice when they do it's usually justified or a last resort because they don't know what to do. Of the occasional person does it just to be a troll or to ruin a otherwise good rep. End of the day, if you can't fulfill the order in allotted time then you shouldn't take the work. It's just that cut and dry. It's not the customers problem that you got in over your head and created a business to big to sustain. Stay small and schedule business accordingly or go bigger and be responsible, organized and smart enough to know what it will take a month to sustain that business and what it will take to get the promised work out.

Well said Vis. It is not bashing if it is the truth. For 3500 I would take the plane ride with a couple of my Marine buddies and come back with something. Of course I am a just a good ole boy from Bakersfield but that is how we roll.

tonyc said:

Well said Vis. It is not bashing if it is the truth. For 3500 I would take the plane ride with a couple of my Marine buddies and come back with something. Of course I am a just a good ole boy from Bakersfield but that is how we roll.

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I was actually in Colorado this past summer waiting for a connecting flight coming from Vegas. When I saw our flight was delayed 8 hours and that G&L was only a few hours away I went straight to Enterprise Rental. However, my buddy came rushing up to me all excited that he found us another flight leaving in 30 minutes.

BTW, I am not a Marine. Courthouse bay/Stones bay lays host to many multi-mission training platforms for many branches.


TWOJUGS: That's a shame to hear about the bike you dealt with. I have dealt with the same thing and it has almost become standard practice when having a complete build done. I tell my buddies that are new to motorcycles that if they don't know how to turn a wrench on them they have no business being on one.

BMDeckie said:

I was actually in Colorado this past summer waiting for a connecting flight coming from Vegas. When I saw our flight was delayed 8 hours and that G&L was only a few hours away I went straight to Enterprise Rental. However, my buddy came rushing up to me all excited that he found us another flight leaving in 30 minutes.

BTW, I am not a Marine. Courthouse bay/Stones bay lays host to many multi-mission training platforms for many branches.


TWOJUGS: That's a shame to hear about the bike you dealt with. I have dealt with the same thing and it has almost become standard practice when having a complete build done. I tell my buddies that are new to motorcycles that if they don't know how to turn a wrench on them they have no business being on one.

Click to expand...

The bike wasn't mine. It was someone who bought it locally and found me through my youtube vids and asked me to fix it for him. He paid me and I gave him a good deal to help him out. It needed lots more done but the costs would be out of range to put into a bike like that. It should have been done right from the start or at least warn the buyer that they better know how to work around custom builds that are not "just right".He was much nicer about the raw deal then I would have been.

I am not here defending there way of doing business and if you got a small shop Stay small you will be better off and can pick and chose the work you want but lets be real. If you got a order of 100 brat kits would you step up to take them with a small shop or walk away.Everyone has the dream of being big and making a lot of money to be secure.DON"T THEY ! I never heard anyone go into business to not make money and if you don't think you could handle a shop you are smarter than most and will still have bucks in your pocket at the end of the day.Me i must just be different i loved the american dream and had good money making shops this one was just a bust. Win some lose some its life.There customer service may suck big time and i feel for the guy who is waiting for a $8,000.00 XS 650. There are many on the internet sold everyday. BILL is selling a very cool looking one for much less. These bikes two years ago went for some big bucks and some very nice ones sold for little money. Times have changed and just maybe there is two sides of this story or maybe he is 100% correct and he is getting ripped off. Operating a business now a days is like playing with a gun with five bullets in it. You may have a 30% chance of making it more than 1 year. If this is the way you find out how good some shop is then its sad for anyone in business because you will always have one customer not happy with what you did and then have 10 who never had work done by you jump in.If you can build it yourself all power to you and yes you can buy the parts on the internet but there are 10 for every one guy who can build can't turn a wrench or doesn't have the time and will pay to have a bike built by someone and again like i said before web sites/ youtube are where these guys are going too everyday not just XS 650 builds but all builds.
If you want to help this guy find someone on this site that knows or lives near the shop and let them be your voice it may help him get somewhere. Someone here had a direct number or is reading this and can get the two of them together.

If I got a order of a 100 kits I would take it and fill it in a very timely manner. If I couldn't, I wouldn't. I don't need high overhead to get work out. I deliver what I promise. I will only move to the next size shop when I feel the work will sustain. Has nothing to do with not being able to handle a shop. I single handed run my shop every day. I answer emails, get kits out, custom paint tins, install kits on frames and I built and maintain my web site myself. I also answer my phone and return calls. I juggle all that because I have to and because moving to the next level in a volatile market makes no sense.

I'm going to bow out right here before this thread gets any more sideways. This is about g&l and their customers. That is for him to deal with. Hopefully both parties get what they deserve from all this. At the end of it all. I have a bad ass g&l tail I used on my bike and I love it. I have sent lots of business their way previously. So, I have no Ill will toward them AT ALL.

You are right that it is about G&L and this customer that didn't get what he paid for. Again not taking sides but i just want to open your eyes that what people think owning/operating a motorcycle shop is about and sometimes its not peaches and cream.I stand behind all the work that i have seen in guys building parts for XS 650 and other bikes and would be the first if it was you that was getting bashed for poor workman ship or someone useing ELECTRONICS/CARBS/GAS TANKS/HANDLE BARS. Do you see it or not in the last couple of months on many sites people bashed more than one vendor and it started with one person who did not like the product and reading them in 75% of the cases they didn't give the vendor the chance to correct or defend himself. Business is tough and no one is not going to take money for a product in todays market. Hope everyone who now is operating a business and selling products keeps doing as well as they are . All i can say is this is a 2 year deal and there needs to be someone who can help this guy. No matter how low you go there is a point when you can't sleep/eat/think of what you have done and got to correct it.
I hope i didn't hurt anyones feelings because i always speak open and this is the business bullshit that you won't learn in a school program.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS

The motorcycle industry is full of a very young age group in general.
That's understandable. A lot of that comes from the strong interest in bikes we all probably developed when we were young and what I consider the false advertisement from a certain motorcycle mechanic school about a great job market and big money. Go to your nearest dealership and check out the age group in the service department. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with young folks in the industry but I just believe many have not yet learned the people skills and foundation necessary to start their own business and survive. On the other hand, I recently (on the recommendation of several people) took my bike (to what I'll call a gentleman for now.) in for a wiring problem to a man in his 50's. He runs a small shop with about 3 mechanics. It seemed like I might have found a good mechanic that I can rely on when I run across a problem I can't figure out. He extimated a couple hrs. max to fix the problem. It is now just over 5 weeks and as of a couple days ago he has not started on my bike. So there you are, same story again. I'm getting ready to go get my bike and clearly express my disappointment. This is why I hate motorcycle shops in general.
jefft

Daddy you have a good point in giving the vendor a chance for correction in a REASONABLE TIME. As customers, all we ask in most cases is for the shop to be up front with us. If it is going to take two months let the us know. Do'nt take full price for the bike and not do the work.

I'm sure Rich is taking on new orders with the best intentions and if he's having a hard time finding help and can't keep up with demand, he's just got to be up front & honest and let his customers know.

I realize he's probably overwhelmed with work because he puts out a nice product and I wouldn't have handed over my bike and $4K, if I didn't agree.

That being said...
I think I've been pretty understanding thus far and if there was just a little more communication, I might actually be okay with waiting (2) years for a build but without hearing anything, you're left to think the worst.

you are a very patient man. I would never wait that long for any build unless I was doing it my self.

Don i think your name is Don...
I agree there needs to be some talking on both sides and you waited long enough. You were not told it would be this long but its very clear that there is a problem on there end.Like i said you get in way over your head and try and try but nothing seems to go right. I have gave back money on builds put extra parts on builds or just gave them the bike without paying the balance. Is that good business NO!! I lost money.I am finishing up the very last bike i am doing now and have $800.00 plus of my own money in bike am i going to collect it NO because they understood my problem and are working with me and this is going to be a kickass bike MY LAST. By having people come on a site and say you ripped them off when you didn't and loose $8000,00 in deposits which would have been $16,000.00 in sales is that right. You open a shop to make money YOUNG/OLD doesn't matter and nobody looks at the 100 bikes you have built in the last 35 plus years only the one that is being bitched about.
I am ending this because its not helping you and i can't really tell you what to do to solve your problem fast. I just know from being sued over my 35 Plus years running motorcycle and Tattoo shops of what i learned from lawyers and judges in court and thats not the road you want to go on.
Guys ALL have a very great holiday and if you want to get me to ask a question
EMAIL me AT RGrant51@aol.com I will answer your email.
HAVE A HAPPY HOLIDAY AND KEEP CHOPPIN
Rich Grant

Isn't there any out of work builders out there that can drive over there for a month and give him a hand to get the orders out? I would think that would be the way to go. Help out the community by helping out the small business. I would if I wasn't already working 16 hour days (although I'm not a builder).