If a guy wanted to drop the torque peak from 6k to 5k...

GreasyC

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... would it be achievable with a little effort?

I can count the number of times I hit 7000rpm on this bike on one hand. Does anybody actually shift up there on these things in real life? Feels like it's going to shake itself apart. Even when I was really hustling it I shifted by 6000rpm. The available "performance" parts for these are understandably focussed on racing and shift the torque peak even higher for more peak horsepower.

Could I build an engine that gives up performance up there to gain to performance in the range I really use? Maximizing the average torque between 4k and 6k would be my goal so shifting the torque peak down from 6k to 5k sounds like what I want to do. But how do I do it? Cam? Porting? Maybe a longer intake runner would help?

My first time trying to build an engine to do what I want instead of simply refreshing the stock parts. I have all winter to do it but I need some help coming up with a plan for parts that work together to get there.
 
if i recall.... open drag pipes(no baffles) move the torque up in rpm's, so one would asume putting baffles in the pipes would bring it back down.
 
For torque in the mid range, bigger is not better, I would recommend -
slightly longer intakes (TC Bros/Shell)
a decent exhaust (not open pipes or short dump pipes) as mentioned above - they don't call them drag pipes for no reason....drag racing = W.O.T. high rpm power. I have just installed a 2-1 reverse cone megaphone & the difference over drag pipes is quite noticeable (& quieter)
a conservative cam (Shell #1/XS1 or even stock 447 is good for a street motor)
properly tuned carbs (vm34's + unifilter road pods)
a deburring of the head/ports only & reinstall the stock valves (recut seats & face valves)
Rephased crank & cam.
Electronic ignition
Your engine must also be in good mechanical order - its no good doing any of the above (or other advice you may get) if you only have 90psi compression.
 
you need to read xsjohns posts, both here and on the old 650rider site. There is a few gathered together here in the tech section. Lowering compression would be a good start, along with the BS34 carbs tuned right. Standard cam and dont worry about the re-phase. goodluck

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I have the stock baseball bat mufflers and I'd like to keep them on if I can. They probably don't qualify as "free flowing" but I had some megaphones on there before that and they would leave my ears ringing.

It's a 256 engine so it has the xs1 cam but unless I can find some good 256 rods to rebuild the crank with I'll probably switch to a 447 one. Also has the 38mm carbs which I've read are maybe too big for what I want to do?

I should clarify that I do want to build an engine with more power than stock. I remember XSJohn from the old site but I think he was after a mellow, reliable commuter wasn't he? I want the bike to make more power than stock, but in the 4-6k range and then power can fall off a cliff for all I care because I have no interest in winding it out to 7500 or 8000 like the race bikes are tuned for. Just too much vibration and stress on everything for my liking.
 
I thought you could use the 256 cam in a 447, just need to change the sprocket on the cam and the adjuster? 750 kit will help too.

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If you're going to run stock carbs, use BS34s or '76-'77 BS38s. Smaller carbs give better low end and midrange performance. The '76-'77 38s have the strongest midrange of the 38s because they have that largest needle jet (Z-8).
 
This was one of those strings you pull on that turns out to be connected to a pretty big ball of yarn. I went looking for answers on this topic and ended up spending an hour or two reading about it each night, for almost two weeks! (Yes, I do have a lot of spare time haha) No big surprise here but the hotrod and race car guys have engine building down to a science and there's not much they haven't tried, dynoed, and written up.

I figured I'd post what I found out in case anyone else was curious about this. In short the answer I found is: there are several ways you can move your torque peak around to different RPMs, and you probably don't want to. :laugh:

The first and most important thing i found out:

Rule 1. You Can't Get More Torque

Fill a 650cc can with evaporated gas and light it off and you will get a certain size explosion. Because you don't always get the can full right to the brim there will be some small variation in how big a bang you get, maybe 10%, but there's nothing you can do to make a *sigificantly* bigger bang from that same 650cc can. Think of a firecracker and a stick of dynamite. The firecracker will never bang anything like the stick of dynamite no matter how well made the firecracker is.

What's the point of this? The force you get from exploding that 650cc of air+gas is your torque. "Peak Torque" is the bang you get when the can is filled the most. You won't get significantly more torque than this unless you increase the displacement of your engine. (bigger can = bigger explosion = more torque). Bore and stroke ratio can't change this, revs don't matter, firing order doesn't matter, the length of your rod doesn't matter, only the size of the can. Again when I say "don't matter" I mean they don't make a *significant* difference. You can make a science of playing around with all the little variables and end up with 10% more peak torque but if you were hoping for more like a 50%(20 ft-lb) increase you need a completely different engine with a lot more displacement.

Have a look at this:

Code:
model		Peak Torque
---------------------------

Yamaha XS650	40 ft-lbs
'01 BMW F650	39 ft-lbs
'08 BMW F650	44 ft-lbs
Suzuki DR650	39 ft-lbs
Suzuki SV650	47 ft-lbs
Yamaha R6	47 ft-lbs
Honda NC700	47 ft-lbs
Ducati 696	50 ft-lbs

That spans everything from single cylinder low rpm thumpers, to parallel twins, to v-twins, to inline 4 screamers. Even a couple 700s thrown in. They all make roughly 40 to 47 ft-lbs of torque because they're all exploding roughly the same size can. The super high tech R6 has massive valve area and all the science you can buy so it manages to make about 15% more torque than the XS650 does despite being 50cc smaller. That's impressive in it's way, but it also tells me that unless you redesigned every single part of the XS650 until it was just as high tech as an R6 you won't get more that 47 ft-lbs of torque out of it. BMW evolved their F650 over 7 years and managed to increase torque by just 12%. And they're engine geniuses, I'm not :shrug:

So the engine in a full on 300Km/Hr race bike like the R6 actually "pulls" no harder than an XS650. Or not much anyways. There's only one difference between them that makes the R6 fast and the XS slow - the XS has to shift. Say you changed the sprockets to make both bikes have the same overall gearing then you sent them both down the strip. They'd be very evenly matched at first. The R6 can't make it's peak torque down low so the XS may even pull a slight lead... until about 35mph. At this point the XS can't move air into and out of the engine any faster so it can't keep spinning faster, it has to shift.

When you shift up a gear you literally throw away torque. (we're talking rear wheel torque here, the force that is actually accelerating the bike). That's the price you pay for wanting to keep going faster when your engine can't turn any quicker. When you shift the XS from 1st to 2nd you throw out 30% of your torque. Acceleration drops by 30%, or the bike "pulls" 30% less strongly than it did in 1st. The next gear you throw away another 14% of your torque, and so on up the range of gears until you hit 5th gear where you're down to just 43% of the pulling strength you started with. Meanwhile the R6 has just kept on trucking. It can rev to 17,000 rpm so it didn't need to shift. The XS has lost about 60% of it's strength but the R6 is still pulling just as hard as you both were back at the start. That's it. The only advantage the race bike has is that it doesn't throw out it's torque by upshifting until way farther down the strip.

This is why you don't want to move the XS's torque peak down to a lower rpm. The XS has a very flat torque curve already. You have about 35 ft-lbs at 2500 rpm. You could change the cam, intake length, maybe fill in the intake port and fit a smaller carb, and get your peak 40 ft-lbs right there at 2500 rpm. You've gained 14% torque so your bike will pull 14% stronger in the first couple seconds of acceleration, but to do this you've given up your high rpm ability so you now have to shift much earlier. Of course when you do, there goes 30% of your torque much sooner than it used to. So you got a 12% gain for a couple seconds followed by a much bigger loss all the way up to whatever speed you're trying to reach. Very bad deal.

If you want the bike to pull harder you can do three things, get more displacement, keep the revs up(stay in a lower gear), or put on a bigger rear sprocket. There's nothing you can do to the engine that will make the bike pull even close to as strong coming off a corner at 2500 rpm as it would have coming out of the same corner at 5000 rpm because for the same corner speed you have to be in twice as high of a gear to get the engine down to 2500 vs 5000. Higher gear = torque thrown out. In this case 50% of your torque.

Well most of you probably knew that, but hopefully it's useful to some others. I learned that each part of the engine - the cam, the intake, the exhaust, the port diameter, the valve diameters etc. - has an rpm range. The stock 447 cam seems to work best in approximately the 3000-5500 range. That's pretty good for what the bike is, not the best cam for peak power but not much given up on the bottom end either. Both the valves are a little big for the bore size, the ports are very wide, and the intake and exhaust are a complete crap shoot depending on whatever the owner felt like fitting. The engine would work the best and "fill the can" to the highest level when all of those parts are trying to work in the same rpm range so if you want to make your XS pull up to speed quicker it's probably a better idea to try to get the intake and exhaust working to the same goal that the cam is rather than trying to move peak torque around which will only make things more out of tune with each other.
 
Excellent write up, the question was more about shifting the torgue band lower because the bike isn't used in the top end of the range.

Correct me if i am wrong here but putting a 2 into one system on the bike will get better savaging at lower revs, (More torque?), and losses out in the upper range. I guess keeping the headers as close to original size as well
 
More low end and mid range on a XS650?

Simple. LA Sleeves, Wisco pistons, Shell #1 cam/stiff springs; with longer intakes for the cherry on top.

Same answer since that motor carried a #1 AMA plate.

yes there are other ways to get more cubes but IMHO the old way is the best way in this case.

Also, the detailed discussion about torque is correct, but incomplete.
You get 100 HP out of a 600 cc sport bike by spinnin' the mill.

Every time a motor lights up a fuel/air charge it produces power. The more times it does that the more power it makes. How much more is a limited by the motors ability to get the gas/air in and out.

You multiply the torque with the transmission of course, so 50 ft pounds at the crank at 10 grand is worth at lot more than 50 lbs at 5 grand
 
An R6 falls well short of 300 KM/H. That's 186 MPH. 165 is about all a race tuned R6 can manage.
Torque is influenced by compression ratio as well.

Changing gears doesen't "throw away" your torque, so much as it changes the length of your lever.
My SV 650's torque peak comes at approximately the same RPM as my XS, but the SV is 10.0:1 compression with 4 valves per cylinder, and the XS is 8.5:1 with 2 valves per cylinder.
 
The thing is, the SV is still making most of that torque all the way to 9 grand while the 2valve XS has run out of breath at 6.5 or so. You do the math. Whatever gear you are in you will be reducing crankshaft RPM into wheel rpm and multiplying the torque at the wheel at the same ratio (i.e. the overall ratio of that gear selection/sprocket set). Mas motor RPM = mas torque at the wheel = "pull."

To say that an XS650 pulls as hard as an R6 is just ridiculous. A well ridden average stock XS is lucky to get through the traps in 14 seconds and a peaky - hard to launch - stock R6 gets there in under 11 seconds. It's motor spins twice as fast as an XS (13,800 rpm red line) and its heads/carbs/exhaust/cam keep it breathing way, way, way out of the world the XS650 heads live in.

It misses the mark a bit to say that the size of the "can" (i.e. the displacement) is the sole determinate of the torque. Really, it is the amount of fuel/air that you burn every time that sparkplug fires. The bigger the "can" of course, the more it can hold, but you can "shove" more in by pressurizing the intake and you can "coax" more in via fluid dynamics with cam/head/exhaust etc. Our old twin's fluid dynamics are WWII technology level and the modern sports bikes are ALIEN TECHNOLOGY spaceship shit.





but the question is how do we get more power lower on th XS650, and the answer is still get a "bigger can"
 
I didn't get into volumetric efficiencies over 100% because I'd already written a huge post that I wasn't sure anyone would want to read, and I thought I was writing it for people who didn't already know this stuff not you pros ;) I did mention you would see some 10% variation of torque based on how "full you get the can" (why you have lower torque at 2500 than 6000 with the same size can) but of course you're all correct that you can over fill it and force more than 650cc of mixture into a 650cc can. A turbo or supercharger will pump the most in but with careful balancing of the intake and exhaust lengths and diameters you can get a little "boost" in a naturally aspirated engine too by taking advantage of the inertia of the moving air in those pipes. This is how the R6 manages to get a 47 ft-lb peak from only 600cc, but it only works over a small range where everything goes into tune just right. Some bikes even have a moving part to change the length of the intake as you go up through the rev range so they get this boost twice. I think this is probably also a factor in the unpredictable results people get when they pull out the stock intake and fit pods. You're creating a shorter intake tract that doesn't fit the rpm range of the engine and with the wide ports the air already has less momentum than you'd hope for so I wouldn't be surprised if you run into reversion pretty quick with the carb right on port, pod right on carb set-up. Everybody seems to focus on the "DC" aspect (how much total airflow vs. how much fuel) while ignoring the "AC" aspect of how in or out of tune with the engine an intake of that length/width will be.

More low end and mid range on a XS650?

Also, the detailed discussion about torque is correct, but incomplete.
You get 100 HP out of a 600 cc sport bike by spinnin' the mill.

Every time a motor lights up a fuel/air charge it produces power. The more times it does that the more power it makes. How much more is a limited by the motors ability to get the gas/air in and out.

Absolutely, I don't think we're disagreeing, it's just a different way of saying the same thing. Torque is the actual force pushing the bike down the road and an XS and a R6 make about the same amount of "push". Horsepower is like a rating of the engine's breathing ability and valve train quality.

Because an R6 can go so fast in first gear you might as well throw a huge rear sprocket on it and get more "push" in exchange for having to shift out of 1st sooner and this is exactly what the sport bikes do. So in stock setup yeah, R6 pulls off the line harder than the XS, but that's not because R6 has more horsepower. It's because you've geared it up to have more rear wheel torque. You could put the exact same gearing ratio on the XS and it would pull just as hard. This is the example I wrote about in other post, gearing them the same. They would accelerate at about the same rate then but only until 35mph or something pathetic when the XS has to shift and that loses 30% of it's "push". It's not until that point that the R6's horsepower has become an advantage, and the advantage isn't that it gets any stronger or starts pulling more, it just doesn't lose what they both started with. So torque = how hard the engine pushes, and horsepower = how long you can delay the inevitable torque reducing upshift.

I really didn't mean to get into a horsepower vs torque thing though, what I was trying to point out is that there's no way (okay, no way other than turbos) to make a 650cc engine magically produce a lot more torque down low. I thought it might be possible to trade some high end power for more down low torque. Apparently other people here believe that too based on the threads about "tractors" and the guy turing his XS into a twingle to "get more torque", but the truth is aside from small differences due to better or worse volumetric efficiency and a maybe a little bit reduced friction at low rpm, you won't get more torque out of the same engine. It makes 40 ft-lbs no matter where you put the torque peak. Maybe 45 if you tune it great, and the only way to get *significantly* more is to get bigger cans on it.
 
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"the same gearing ratio on the XS and it would pull just as hard [as the R6]"
is incorrect.

You are missing one critical point.

The R6 spins twice as fast and so it makes (roughly) twice as much power. At any given moment the force applied to the piston tops and transmitted to the crankshaft of the R6 may be the same as that applied to the crankshaft of the XS but the R6 pistions are applying that force twice as often.

Said another way

(X ft lbs of crankshaft torque at Y engine rpm) * ( Y * overall reduction in a given gear ) = Z ft lbs of torque at the wheel in that gear at that crankshaft RPM.


Just as a block and tackle trades length of rope pulled at the person end for more lifting power at the load end a transmission trades number of spins at the crank for more twisting power at the wheel.
 
No I promise I'm not overlooking the fact that the R6 can fire off twice as fast as the XS. I appreciate the help and you guys talking about this with me so I don't want to seem like a jerk but I'm sure I don't have it wrong. I've been saying all along that the sport bike's whole advantage is that it's able to keep repeating the same trick up to a much higher speed, ie. it CAN turn twice as fast. BUT... that doesn't mean the R6 turns twice as fast as the XS *at all times* and is therefore always better. You must be skimming over what it means to give both bikes the same overall gear ratio.

If you gear both bikes the same, and I mean OVERALL gear ratio here all the way from from crank to wheel, then off the line the R6 is not turning twice as fast as the XS. They're turning *exactly the same rpm* at any given speed up until the XS has to shift. That's what gear ratio means after all, how fast the crank is turning relative to how fast the rear wheel is turning. If the gear ratio on both bikes is the same it's impossible for the cranks to be going different speeds when the wheels are going the same. I made a speadsheet of this with the exact internal gear ratios, sprocket ratios, correct rear wheel diameters, torque for each rpm and the overall "driving force" all that produced vs. speed for both bikes.

I actually used the CBR600 in the spreadsheet because google gave up the internal gear ratios for it easier than the R6 but I'm sure they're pretty similar. From the crank to the countershaft the CBR has an internal ratio of 5.805 for 1st gear, the XS has 5.904. If you stopped there and drove both bike's rear wheels with a 1:1 sprocket set the XS would have already have more torque and more drive off the line than the sportbike because the XS has a bit more "torque-y" internal ratio AND the sportbike is well down from it's peak torque in this low rpm range. To make them have the exact same overall ratio you actually have to give the sportbike a couple more rear sprocket teeth than the XS, but once you have them the same the cranks are turning the same speed, the torque from the crank is being multiplied by the exact same ratio, and the XS has more total "driving force" at the rear wheel than the sport bike... BUT... only for few seconds. By 35 mph the XS has to shift and doing so it loses 30% of it's rear wheel driving force right about at the same moment the sport bike is coming into it's powerband and getting it's own rear wheel driving force up to it's better values so the XS gets passed like a turtle at this point. Do I need to mention again we've geared them the same hehe, please don't say "I've seen a stock sport bike and a stock XS pull away from the line and the sport bike pulls harder" because that is being accomplished by the huge rear sprocket that comes stock on the sport bike. With it's stock 16/42 sprockets the sport bike has an overall 15.239 ratio for 1st gear compared to the XS's 11.808 so with the stock sprockets it's not even close.
 
No I promise I'm not overlooking the fact that the R6 can fire off twice as fast as the XS. I appreciate the help and you guys talking about this with me so I don't want to seem like a jerk but I'm sure I don't have it wrong. I've been saying all along that the sport bike's whole advantage is that it's able to keep repeating the same trick up to a much higher speed, ie. it CAN turn twice as fast. BUT... that doesn't mean the R6 turns twice as fast as the XS *at all times* and is therefore always better. You must be skimming over what it means to give both bikes the same overall gear ratio.

If you gear both bikes the same, and I mean OVERALL gear ratio here all the way from from crank to wheel, then off the line the R6 is not turning twice as fast as the XS. They're turning *exactly the same rpm* at any given speed up until the XS has to shift. That's what gear ratio means after all, how fast the crank is turning relative to how fast the rear wheel is turning. If the gear ratio on both bikes is the same it's impossible for the cranks to be going different speeds when the wheels are going the same. I made a speadsheet of this with the exact internal gear ratios, sprocket ratios, correct rear wheel diameters, torque for each rpm and the overall "driving force" all that produced vs. speed for both bikes.

I actually used the CBR600 in the spreadsheet because google gave up the internal gear ratios for it easier than the R6 but I'm sure they're pretty similar. From the crank to the countershaft the CBR has an internal ratio of 5.805 for 1st gear, the XS has 5.904. If you stopped there and drove both bike's rear wheels with a 1:1 sprocket set the XS would have already have more torque and more drive off the line than the sportbike because the XS has a bit more "torque-y" internal ratio AND the sportbike is well down from it's peak torque in this low rpm range. To make them have the exact same overall ratio you actually have to give the sportbike a couple more rear sprocket teeth than the XS, but once you have them the same the cranks are turning the same speed, the torque from the crank is being multiplied by the exact same ratio, and the XS has more total "driving force" at the rear wheel than the sport bike... BUT... only for few seconds. By 35 mph the XS has to shift and doing so it loses 30% of it's rear wheel driving force right about at the same moment the sport bike is coming into it's powerband and getting it's own rear wheel driving force up to it's better values so the XS gets passed like a turtle at this point. Do I need to mention again we've geared them the same hehe, please don't say "I've seen a stock sport bike and a stock XS pull away from the line and the sport bike pulls harder" because that is being accomplished by the huge rear sprocket that comes stock on the sport bike. With it's stock 16/42 sprockets the sport bike has an overall 15.239 ratio for 1st gear compared to the XS's 11.808 so with the stock sprockets it's not even close.



Ok, I see your point.

Of course you have zero clutch slip in your version of a drag race launch, and the fact that the R6 will be running well over the XS redline from the time the christmas tree says "go" until it zips through the traps (at which time the xs will be nearing the middle of the track).
 
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