Help! No neutral light/no headlight, no start

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ScottBowl

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First of all, the battery's fully charged and the fuses are all good.

Now, ever since I got the bike I wondered if this was normal: when I turn the key, the headlight doesn't come on. After giving it one good crank, however, the headlight would pop on without fail. I figured it was a relay of some sort to save power...? Is this normal?

So anyway here's my problem. I was riding the other day and the neutral light stopped coming on when the bike was put in neutral. I drove it home, shut it off, and forgot about it. When I came back the next day it wouldn't start. I would crank it over and over and the headlight would never come on. I checked the fuses, charged the battery, and tried again, to no avail.

I figure the problem must be the ignition switch, the killswitch or the mystery relay that affects the headlight, but I can't be sure.

Also I should mention, and this is pretty embarassing; I left the bike out in the rain about a week or so before this started happening, which I imagine must be the cluprit... :doh:

Thanks for the help!

edit: Also want to mention that I have a service manual on-hand, but at this point I'm wondering if my wiring still is original, which is why I'm asking to find out if the headlight business is the norm or not.
 
ScottBowl said:
First of all, the battery's fully charged and the fuses are all good.

Now, ever since I got the bike I wondered if this was normal: when I turn the key, the headlight doesn't come on. After giving it one good crank, however, the headlight would pop on without fail. I figured it was a relay of some sort to save power...? Is this normal?

So anyway here's my problem. I was riding the other day and the neutral light stopped coming on when the bike was put in neutral. I drove it home, shut it off, and forgot about it. When I came back the next day it wouldn't start. I would crank it over and over and the headlight would never come on. I checked the fuses, charged the battery, and tried again, to no avail.

I figure the problem must be the ignition switch, the killswitch or the mystery relay that affects the headlight, but I can't be sure.

Also I should mention, and this is pretty embarassing; I left the bike out in the rain about a week or so before this started happening, which I imagine must be the cluprit... :doh:

Thanks for the help!

edit: Also want to mention that I have a service manual on-hand, but at this point I'm wondering if my wiring still is original, which is why I'm asking to find out if the headlight business is the norm or not.
Click to expand...

my guess is that the loom is stock (since it still has the circuit that keeps the lights off for starting) and the problem is the TCI (ignition) but it is possible it is the kill switch.
 
burns said:
my guess is that the loom is stock (since it still has the circuit that keeps the lights off for starting) and the problem is the TCI (ignition) but it is possible it is the kill switch.
Click to expand...
You know, that just might be it. The TCI was giving me trouble earlier on, so it may have crapped out completely. Thanks for the input.
 
You say the fuses are good but are they mounted in an old original fuse box? Those things are notorious for going bad. The ends that the fuses fit into get weak, corroded, basically stop making good contact.
 
5twins said:
You say the fuses are good but are they mounted in an old original fuse box? Those things are notorious for going bad. The ends that the fuses fit into get weak, corroded, basically stop making good contact.
Click to expand...
I actually replaced the fuse box/fuses with square fuses at the start of the season.
 
ScottBowl said:
First of all, the battery's fully charged and the fuses are all good.

Now, ever since I got the bike I wondered if this was normal: when I turn the key, the headlight doesn't come on. After giving it one good crank, however, the headlight would pop on without fail. I figured it was a relay of some sort to save power...? Is this normal?

So anyway here's my problem. I was riding the other day and the neutral light stopped coming on when the bike was put in neutral. I drove it home, shut it off, and forgot about it. When I came back the next day it wouldn't start. I would crank it over and over and the headlight would never come on. I checked the fuses, charged the battery, and tried again, to no avail.

I figure the problem must be the ignition switch, the killswitch or the mystery relay that affects the headlight, but I can't be sure.

Also I should mention, and this is pretty embarassing; I left the bike out in the rain about a week or so before this started happening, which I imagine must be the cluprit... :doh:

Thanks for the help!

edit: Also want to mention that I have a service manual on-hand, but at this point I'm wondering if my wiring still is original, which is why I'm asking to find out if the headlight business is the norm or not.
Click to expand...

The fact that the headlight no longer comes on, may indicate that the Safety Relay is not being energized. The SR is energized when the alternator generates voltage on the yellow wire. I'm thinking your alternator has died or is very weak.

Start the engine, wait a couple of minutes,and measure voltage at the battery terminals. At 1200 rpm should have about 13 to 13.5 volts.At 3000 rpm should have 14.1 to 14.5 volts.
 
retiredgentleman said:
The fact that the headlight no longer comes on, may indicate that the Safety Relay is not being energized. The SR is energized when the alternator generates voltage on the yellow wire. I'm thinking your alternator has died or is very weak.

Start the engine, wait a couple of minutes,and measure voltage at the battery terminals. At 1200 rpm should have about 13 to 13.5 volts.At 3000 rpm should have 14.1 to 14.5 volts.
Click to expand...

well, the fella said it would crank but not start, so while he might also have a charging system problem that's not what's keeping the motor from running.
 
retiredgentleman said:
Start the engine, wait a couple of minutes,and measure voltage at the battery terminals. At 1200 rpm should have about 13 to 13.5 volts.At 3000 rpm should have 14.1 to 14.5 volts.
Click to expand...
Well about a month ago I put a voltmeter on the terminals while the engine was running, and it would start out around 12 volts or so and then trickle down at idle. I thought well this can't be right, but a new alternator kit is like 300$ on mikesxs, so I just charged the battery back up every time I came back home... My alternator is toast.

So I've been researching a bit about replacing the alternator and I ran into the "banshee swap" or "PMA swap", and it seems very appealing to me, but the process seems to be geared to the 70's xs and not the 80's (mine is an '83). What would be the best way to fix the alternator on a 1983 and is it possible to do a PMA swap with a TCI bike?
Thanks for all your help!
 
Have you checked the brush length? If OK ohm test the rotor a picture in my album shows how. If the rotor is OK move on to the stator.
If it isn't(probably the case) you can get your rotor rewound or look for another used one. If buying used ask how the epoxy looks. Still amber colored and no cracks should be good. One with black, cooked, cracked epoxy is going to be short lived. How short?
Who knows. It may last as long as you own the bike but probably not.
 
ScottBowl said:
Well about a month ago I put a voltmeter on the terminals while the engine was running, and it would start out around 12 volts or so and then trickle down at idle. I thought well this can't be right, but a new alternator kit is like 300$ on mikesxs, so I just charged the battery back up every time I came back home... My alternator is toast.

So I've been researching a bit about replacing the alternator and I ran into the "banshee swap" or "PMA swap", and it seems very appealing to me, but the process seems to be geared to the 70's xs and not the 80's (mine is an '83). What would be the best way to fix the alternator on a 1983 and is it possible to do a PMA swap with a TCI bike?
Thanks for all your help!
Click to expand...

I went the MrRiggs / recycle route for the PMA, and I've put it on a couple of motors.
The PMA rotor does not have the trigger magnet for the TCI ignition, so you need to put a cam-driven sparker on those bikes if you go PMA. PAMCO sells kits that have all you need to do that.
 
doesnt the TCI need to know the bike is in neutral to fire? check the plug on top of the gearbox, behind the jugs, fix that, check your brushes and you might be back in business. cheers

Posted via Mobile
 
yamaman said:
doesnt the TCI need to know the bike is in neutral to fire? check the plug on top of the gearbox, behind the jugs, fix that, check your brushes and you might be back in business. cheers

Posted via Mobile
Click to expand...

Be kinda hard to go anywhere if it only ran in neutral wouldn't it?
 
Yamaman hit on something that got me thinking. The 82 and 83 years have the infamous Sidestand Relay:yikes:

In order for the TCI to give spark, the neutral switch must be made or the sidestand must be in the up position. If you have lost the neutral switch (broken wire/switch etc) and the sidestand switch indicates its in the down position, the sidestand relay grounds the TCI unit................result no starting.

You could unplug the sidestand relay and see if engine will then run. Repair neutral switch and/or sidestand switch as needed.
 
weekendrider said:
Have you checked the brush length? If OK ohm test the rotor a picture in my album shows how. If the rotor is OK move on to the stator.
If it isn't(probably the case) you can get your rotor rewound or look for another used one. If buying used ask how the epoxy looks. Still amber colored and no cracks should be good. One with black, cooked, cracked epoxy is going to be short lived. How short?
Who knows. It may last as long as you own the bike but probably not.
Click to expand...
Have not checked brush length yet, but that's next on the docket. A while ago I tested the pick-up coils and they were OK, so I will follow the steps in the picture in your album.

retiredgentleman said:
Yamaman hit on something that got me thinking. The 82 and 83 years have the infamous Sidestand Relay:yikes:

In order for the TCI to give spark, the neutral switch must be made or the sidestand must be in the up position. If you have lost the neutral switch (broken wire/switch etc) and the sidestand switch indicates its in the down position, the sidestand relay grounds the TCI unit................result no starting.

You could unplug the sidestand relay and see if engine will then run. Repair neutral switch and/or sidestand switch as needed.
Click to expand...
Of course! Will check this...

Thank you kindly!
 
Time for an update! This has been a busy winter.

So we pulled out the old rotor, and it measured ~1.2ohms totally toast. Bought a new one that measures 5.2 ohms.

Checked the rotor, the epoxy looked alright, definitely not new but certainly not cooked/cracked.

Now as soon as I can get my new rotor I can put everything back together and see if she'll start for me.

Will update as soon as I can!

thanks again fellas
 
Just as I suspected, back in post #6, the bad rotor means no voltage present to operate the Safety Relay. These bikes don't like low voltage, so perhaps it will start up much better with the working rotor.
 
Still no start! When I turn the key, the solenoid does not click on, the neutral light does not come on, almost like the battery is totally dead. We know it's not the battery because we plugged it to a charger and still nothing happens when I turn the key.

So, onto the solenoid, we tested the solenoid and it is working because the starter engages when we short it to the battery. It's almost as if the main fuse would be out, but it isn't.

Everyone here is talking about safety relays, I would love to know how to test this, even though am I 99% sure it was taken out/bypassed by the previous owner since it would start with the kickstand down back when it worked.

Any help much appreciated!
 
ScottBowl said:
Still no start! When I turn the key, the solenoid does not click on, the neutral light does not come on, almost like the battery is totally dead. We know it's not the battery because we plugged it to a charger and still nothing happens when I turn the key.

So, onto the solenoid, we tested the solenoid and it is working because the starter engages when we short it to the battery. It's almost as if the main fuse would be out, but it isn't.

Everyone here is talking about safety relays, I would love to know how to test this, even though am I 99% sure it was taken out/bypassed by the previous owner since it would start with the kickstand down back when it worked.

Any help much appreciated!
Click to expand...

Since your bike is a 1983, you are faced with some of the most complicated starting interlocks ever known to mankind. A clear case of Yamaha engineers with too much time on their hands.

Sounds like you don't know if the all of the stock interlock relays are present, or if the PO ripped those evil devices from the bike, in a moment of rage. Page 160 and 161 of the Haynes manual talks about this wiring nightmare.

First thing is for you to look and see if the relays are on the bike or not. The right side of the bike should have 2 relays and the left side should have 1 relay. Are the relays there and are wiring harness plugs connected to the relays?

Since the neutral switch is part of the interlocks, you need to find out why the neutral light is not coming on. Underneath the carbs, on the engine case you should see a light blue wire coming from a switch. Turn on the key, and connect a jumper wire from a ground (engine case should do) to the terminal where the light blue wire is connected. The neutral light should light. If it does not, then remove the pilot box cover and check if the neutral bulb is burnt out. If the bulb is good, then you have to enter into the dreaded head light bucket and see if the light blue wire is disconnected in there.
 

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