acebars
XS650 Addict
I don't think the Hosk 500 originator of the XS650 had a license it was a copy. W-1 was BSA under licence to my knowledge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Just rode a Norton
- Thread starter Royboy
- Start date
Heck, dunno....don't really have a dog in the fight. Would be nice to know the for sures.......
I don't know who's wrong. I just now read Yamaha got the design when they acquired Showa,
Everything is derivative to some degree. From the pictures I saw it didn't look like an outright copy of anything.
1974jh5
Curmudgeon.
Datsun and Isuzu both got their start assembling Austins which were sent to Japan in CKD (Completely Knocked Down) form. Then as business picked up Datsun bought a company named Prince who had licensed a Mercedes engine design which is the 1600/1800/2000 ohc 4 banger that was in the 510. The motor was stretched to 6 cylinders for the 240/260/280Z. Isuzu stuck with assembling and manufacturing licensed copies of Austins for a good while but also started selling their own designs and eventually got out of the Austin business.
Yamaha did license/copy the Hosk design for the XS but since Hosk went under before the Yamaha engine ever saw the light of day it can't really be considered theft or copying. The way it worked: Daimler-Benz bought Horex and killed motorcycle production. Showa bought the rights to the engine design but didn't do anything with it, Yamaha bought Showa and with that the rights to the engine design, they tweaked it and history was made. Just in time, it hit the market at just the right time and pushed the right buttons: vertical twin like the Brit sporty bikes but OHC and unit construction like the Honda superbikes. Honda pretty much started with a clean sheet with the CB450 and CB750.
As far as Kawasaki copying the BSA design, the W1 was done very similar to the Mercedes deal with Datsun, a company called Meguro had licensed the BSA design. Kawasaki bought Meguro and with it the rights to produce a copy of the BSA engine. Like Mercedes with Datsun, BSA made money off the Meguro/Kawasaki deal without really raising a finger. Kawasaki had gotten a toehold in the US market with the W1, then built the 900 Z1 engine as a response to Honda's CB750 and everyone was off to the horsepower wars.
Yamaha did license/copy the Hosk design for the XS but since Hosk went under before the Yamaha engine ever saw the light of day it can't really be considered theft or copying. The way it worked: Daimler-Benz bought Horex and killed motorcycle production. Showa bought the rights to the engine design but didn't do anything with it, Yamaha bought Showa and with that the rights to the engine design, they tweaked it and history was made. Just in time, it hit the market at just the right time and pushed the right buttons: vertical twin like the Brit sporty bikes but OHC and unit construction like the Honda superbikes. Honda pretty much started with a clean sheet with the CB450 and CB750.
As far as Kawasaki copying the BSA design, the W1 was done very similar to the Mercedes deal with Datsun, a company called Meguro had licensed the BSA design. Kawasaki bought Meguro and with it the rights to produce a copy of the BSA engine. Like Mercedes with Datsun, BSA made money off the Meguro/Kawasaki deal without really raising a finger. Kawasaki had gotten a toehold in the US market with the W1, then built the 900 Z1 engine as a response to Honda's CB750 and everyone was off to the horsepower wars.
I rode a Norton 850 Commando for about 4 yrs in the '90's. What impressed me most was the great torque the engine had and the wooden feeling front disc brake. I did enjoy the handling and the isolastic mounts. I wish I had upgraded the electrics amd ignition. Yeah, it was a shaker at idle, but above 2500 rpm it was glass smooth.
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acebars
XS650 Addict
I meant Hosk from the Germans. Not Yamaha -> Show -> Hosk, Yamaha bought all of those.
the Norton felt like agricultural equipment. Crude, recalcitrant and not at all friendly. Am I expecting too much? Tell me my experience is not typical. Otherwise I don't see what all the fuss has been about. I must be missing something.
roy
you're measuring the bike against more modern machinery perhaps ? after all the technology is probably 50+ years old !
You probably wouldn't feel that way if it was a Norton cafe racer
tonyc
XS650 Guru
Propery set up the Norton will handle great.
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troopthrowback
XS650 Addict
Realize that the Lucas electrics you love to critique is the exact design you aim to emulate with your PMA charging system...
Lucas electrics pioneered much of the technology decades prior to other brands in other countries. Most of the components that are criticized are extremely old and in many cases simply worn out.
Like many if the motorcycle engineering of the era of British domination (1940s-1960s) these were designed to be rebuilt. Consider that an entire top end can be rebuilt without removal from the frame. Similar ideas were used in the design of the electrics.
As far as handling goes, refinement was made gradually over time. The basic Triumph design saw minimal changes from its debut in 1938 through the mid 1980s. The amount of interchangeability possible le to many mismatches along the way. Steering geometry alone changed not less than six times in that time period. Mismatch those parts and some serious handling differences will result.
The bottom line is that when you can put 40 horse and at least that many foot pounds of torque to the ground in a machine slightly above 300 pounds you have a very fun and competitive machine. At the same level of power and 465 pounds you can leave something to be desired.
Posted via Mobile
Lucas electrics pioneered much of the technology decades prior to other brands in other countries. Most of the components that are criticized are extremely old and in many cases simply worn out.
Like many if the motorcycle engineering of the era of British domination (1940s-1960s) these were designed to be rebuilt. Consider that an entire top end can be rebuilt without removal from the frame. Similar ideas were used in the design of the electrics.
As far as handling goes, refinement was made gradually over time. The basic Triumph design saw minimal changes from its debut in 1938 through the mid 1980s. The amount of interchangeability possible le to many mismatches along the way. Steering geometry alone changed not less than six times in that time period. Mismatch those parts and some serious handling differences will result.
The bottom line is that when you can put 40 horse and at least that many foot pounds of torque to the ground in a machine slightly above 300 pounds you have a very fun and competitive machine. At the same level of power and 465 pounds you can leave something to be desired.
Posted via Mobile
Royboy
many roads, little time
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you're measuring the bike against more modern machinery perhaps ? after all the technology is probably 50+ years old !
You probably wouldn't feel that way if it was a Norton cafe racer
Actually Peanut, While I was riding my pal's 75' Norton he was riding the 77' D 650 that I just resto'd. When we swapped back he said, "Wow, I can't believe how well you're Yamaha corners, I've got you on torque but the Yamaha is much smoother, easier and more fun to ride." He even commented on the ease of clutch pull, while many of us bitch about our stiff clutches.
I've always enjoyed the 70's Japanese twins and thumpers, all the way back to my first one, a Bridgestone 175 Hurricane Scrambler. So no, it wasn't about bikes from different era's. And yes, companies such as Colorado Norton Works do build beautiful, powerful, good handling Nortons in many configurations including café racers. But a custom built bike of any make is no longer the product of the original builder.
The thread wasn't started as a knock on Norton or any Brit bike but rather an expression of disappointment I guess. I was just expecting so much more.
roy
I expect the feel of a bike has got more to do with the way that it is setup than how old it is or what make it is like you say.
My last bike ,a 68 BSA Spitfire was a dog . It had been converted to a single carb and not set up properly and the vibration was crippling after only 10 miles ! it handled like a jelly in a storm too
you must have set your clutch up nice and precise. i hope mine turns out that good.
My last bike ,a 68 BSA Spitfire was a dog . It had been converted to a single carb and not set up properly and the vibration was crippling after only 10 miles ! it handled like a jelly in a storm too
you must have set your clutch up nice and precise. i hope mine turns out that good.
Okie
XS650 Addict
"My last bike ,a 68 BSA Spitfire was a dog . It had been converted to a single carb and not set up properly and the vibration was crippling after only 10 miles ! it handled like a jelly in a storm too"
In 1968 the Spitfire was one of the fastest production motorcycles made. It was claimed to go 120MPH. I know that with some head work and cams they made gobs of hp, which is why the likes of Dick Mann, David Aldana gave Harley such a hard time, altho they did use specialty frames. The XS, even tho it's an old design, is still more reliable. I own and love them both.
Now if I could only afford a 270° crank for that Spitfire.
In 1968 the Spitfire was one of the fastest production motorcycles made. It was claimed to go 120MPH. I know that with some head work and cams they made gobs of hp, which is why the likes of Dick Mann, David Aldana gave Harley such a hard time, altho they did use specialty frames. The XS, even tho it's an old design, is still more reliable. I own and love them both.
Now if I could only afford a 270° crank for that Spitfire.
tonyc
XS650 Guru
I am putting a 270into my BSA 1963 A-65
donald
XS650 Enthusiast
You are correct about the W1 it was a BSA A10 which was being built under license by a Japanese company which was purchased by Kawasaki.The connection between Yamaha and Hosk is disputed in some articles and corroborated in others
donald
XS650 Enthusiast
Your explanation of the Hosk Horex connection through Showa makes the most sense.I had never been made aware of Showa being involved in anything other than suspension componentry
donald
XS650 Enthusiast
I am presently finishing a 71 Triumph 500 Daytona restoration and have started doing an engine rebuild on a friends 68 BSA Lightening engine.Where are you getting the 270 degree crankshaft from
tonyc
XS650 Guru
Someone in Canada. Or the stroked crank from England.
Metalredneck
XS650 Member
I have owned a 1974 Sportster (yeah, AMF,) and a 1979 Bonneville 750, and have ridden about five Nortons. My XS's were all better.
That being said, I just bought a Katana, so all my XS stuff is up for sale. I will shake no more.
That being said, I just bought a Katana, so all my XS stuff is up for sale. I will shake no more.
Metalredneck that smooth engine seems like a great thing but sooner or later you'll come back to a motorcycle with soul.
IMHO the 73? combat Commando's were the height of the Norton Line. There is a certain feeling, fit, and finish about the British machinery that the Japanese stuff lacked. Handling was just so so. the swing arm was spindly, (sound familiar?) they would wobble if pushed hard, front brake was period wooden in feel. I think as mentioned above it was the Z1 that sealed the coffin lid. The Japanese were working with a $ exchange rate and national will to innovate engineer and sell that the British could not overcome.
IMHO the 73? combat Commando's were the height of the Norton Line. There is a certain feeling, fit, and finish about the British machinery that the Japanese stuff lacked. Handling was just so so. the swing arm was spindly, (sound familiar?) they would wobble if pushed hard, front brake was period wooden in feel. I think as mentioned above it was the Z1 that sealed the coffin lid. The Japanese were working with a $ exchange rate and national will to innovate engineer and sell that the British could not overcome.
Irish_prick
master of the cut'n wheel
Kaw did buy the design of the w1 from bsa. if you ride a brit twin after a Xs650 understand that's like go'n backward. The xs650 is the best brit bike they never made. I have owned trump, bsa, and nortons there great bikes but there old tech the xs650 was a improved brit design from the start with xs1 . The xs650 have the great look of a brit but with a japs dependability. The norton to ride is one with featherbed frame.
