about to ditch the E ignition for points

With the pamco I had the electronic advance unit...made for very smooth acceleration. It worked flawlessly except when it didn't...

Advance unit is old which is why I clipped a coil off of one spring.

Plug caps are new but they are 5k ohm so I'll be picking up no resistance caps and checking
 
Clipping off a coil will cause the advance unit to be slow in advancing and quick to retard. The 5K boot's are not usually a problem and your neighbor's will get noise from the plug's. I do believe that the Pamco and point's advise using them. I would get an advance tune up kit, I think it has spring's and the weight's in it.
 
I clipped a coil because the advance wouldn't stay put even at idle. There was little to no tension on the weights to the extreme where even with the points held open with pieces of cardboard so as not to bind up the other end of the rod the springs wouldn't even come close to snapping back the weights. I thing I may take a spring off and give it a bit of a stretch to get it where it needs to be. Too loose before, too tight minus a coil...needs some stretch.

They say the 5k Caps are for FM interference and weren't intended to be used on a points system from what I've read. I'm grasping at straws here...
 
To confirm a good frame to engine connection. remove the rear engine mount. The triangular on that uses two bolts in the frame and one in the engine.
The frame has tubes welded into the frame. Clean the ends of these tubes to bare metal. On the triangular pieces of the mount, clean the points where they touch the tubes to bare metal. Also where they touch the engine.
On the engine clean the points where the mount touches the engine.
Now with a thin coat of grease on all these bare metal places, to prevent corrosion. Reassemble the mount. This will give you a good ground path from the engine to the frame.
Adding a ground strap from the engine, I used a starter mount bolt, up directly to the battery ground. This bypasses all the engine to frame contact points.
I also used heavier cables than stock. The stock 10 or 8 ga cables work ok but 4 ga cables carry current with much less resistance so more of the battery power gets to the E-start.
Leo
 
XSLeo said:
To confirm a good frame to engine connection. remove the rear engine mount. The triangular on that uses two bolts in the frame and one in the engine.
The frame has tubes welded into the frame. Clean the ends of these tubes to bare metal. On the triangular pieces of the mount, clean the points where they touch the tubes to bare metal. Also where they touch the engine.
On the engine clean the points where the mount touches the engine.
Now with a thin coat of grease on all these bare metal places, to prevent corrosion. Reassemble the mount. This will give you a good ground path from the engine to the frame.
Adding a ground strap from the engine, I used a starter mount bolt, up directly to the battery ground. This bypasses all the engine to frame contact points.
I also used heavier cables than stock. The stock 10 or 8 ga cables work ok but 4 ga cables carry current with much less resistance so more of the battery power gets to the E-start.
Leo
Click to expand...

good idea Leo on the rear engine mount, I'll have to go that route. I used a 6ga lawn and garden cable I believe for my negative cable to a starter bolt...so basically the frame is getting it's "ground" contact via the motor, not the other way around...which is why an intermittent frame/motor disconnect doesn't make sense because all of my lights are grounded through the frame and none of those have any intermittent flickering due to a ground issue. If the frame was losing contact with the motor at any point I'd lose all my lights.

I will do the rear mount trick though, that's an easy fix there but I'm still not convinced that's the problem.
 
TwoManyXS1Bs said:
Here's a thread on the ignition system resistances:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27020
Click to expand...


Thanks TwoMany,

I actually read that thread a few days ago. I'll probably change one cap out and see if anything happens...all in the name of experimentation. As a physics teacher I understand a fair bit about electricity, but the practical impact of some of these things in this application can escape me at times.

The other thing I was thinking about is that Pete often refers to the proper coil primary resistance as 2.5-4.5ohms for the PAMCO if I remember correctly. My stock coil measures 2.3ohms...not sure if that is too far outside the parameters. Also, if the PAMCO is good for voltages anywhere from 6v to 18v then I'm not sure why my regulator could be an issue for possibly producing voltages at or around 15v...too many questions not enough answers haha
 
Voltage spikes will not blow a fuse under most circumstances. High voltage is not a short cct.

Short cct is a very very very high amp draw.

Posted via Mobile
 
It depends on the duration of the "spike" and how fast acting the fuse is but the point is that of course high voltage can blow a fuse...

I'm not sure when I ever said that high voltage was a short circuit...

This is ohm's law...there's only 2 ways to get a current high enough to blow a fuse...
Low resistance or high voltage
 
dilbone;

You're really running on the ragged edge with 14.77 volts and a 2.3 ohm coil. Speaking of Ohm's law, that gives an instantaneous current of 6.4 amps (average current would be about 1 amp with 60 degree dwell).

I use a 3.3 ohm coil, and my regulator limits voltage to 14.2 volts. This gives an instantaneous current of 4.3 amps (average current of 0.7 amps with 60 degree dwell).

Your instantaneous current is 49% higher than what I have on my bike.

I'd say your regulator has a problem itself or the regulator ground connection is of poor quality and/or intermittant. If your regulator is losing its voltage reference, it will default to full rotor current and cause the voltage to go up to 17 or 18 volts.

You say you painted the frame. Where does the ground wire connection from your regulator connect to? Does it connect back to bare metal on the frame? You would not want that connection going to a painted surface.

You need to solve the high voltage problem (regulator?/regulator ground?) These bikes run really well if the voltage never exceeds 14.2 volts. I'd say 14 .5 volts as a maximum safe voltage.

Your bad combination of extra high voltage and an extra low resistance coil adds up to trouble as you have found.
 
retiredgentleman said:
dilbone;

You're really running on the ragged edge with 14.77 volts and a 2.3 ohm coil. Speaking of Ohm's law, that gives an instantaneous current of 6.4 amps (average current would be about 1 amp with 60 degree dwell).

I use a 3.3 ohm coil, and my regulator limits voltage to 14.2 volts. This gives an instantaneous current of 4.3 amps (average current of 0.7 amps with 60 degree dwell).

Your instantaneous current is 49% higher than what I have on my bike.

I'd say your regulator has a problem itself or the regulator ground connection is of poor quality and/or intermittant. If your regulator is losing its voltage reference, it will default to full rotor current and cause the voltage to go up to 17 or 18 volts.

You say you painted the frame. Where does the ground wire connection from your regulator connect to? Does it connect back to bare metal on the frame? You would not want that connection going to a painted surface.

You need to solve the high voltage problem (regulator?/regulator ground?) These bikes run really well if the voltage never exceeds 14.2 volts. I'd say 14 .5 volts as a maximum safe voltage.

Your bad combination of extra high voltage and an extra low resistance coil adds up to trouble as you have found.
Click to expand...
Thanks retiredgentleman,

I had wondered if the low R coil could be part of my issue, but it has to be a ground issue IMO as you stated. I switched to points with a ballast resistor on this stock coil as of last fall and haven't had any issues. Will I eventually? Who knows, but I don't see myself going back to the pamco any time soon.
 
dilbone said:
Thanks retiredgentleman,

I had wondered if the low R coil could be part of my issue, but it has to be a ground issue IMO as you stated. I switched to points with a ballast resistor on this stock coil as of last fall and haven't had any issues. Will I eventually? Who knows, but I don't see myself going back to the pamco any time soon.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it must be a ground issue, but it could be. The regulator itself could be defective, causing high voltage.

If the points are working well with the stock coil (and ballast resistor), then carry on and enjoy the bike. I also used points and a ballast resistor for the first year running my bike. The points worked just fine on my bike, with my Accel coil. The ballast resistor keeps the points from burning, but it does rob the ignition coil from producing as strong a spark as it could if it was fired by a transistor. If you are getting a good spark, with quick starting,and strong running, then all is well, be happy!

Installing an onboard voltmeter is a real advantage on these older bikes. Monitor the voltage as you drive down the road. A proper charging system regulator shoud keep the voltage under 14.4 volts.

Yes, points will work for you. Millions of cars/trucks/motorcycles used points for 60 to 70 years, before electronic ignitions came along. However they do wear and do require some maintenance to keep them working in tip top shape.
 
Yeah, I didn't mean that you said it was a ground issue but I agree with your suggestion that it could be. The only difference from no pamco issues to 2 failures within 35 miles is paint and reassembly. Pete seemed to want me to be able to give him a definitive answer as to why it failed before he'd send another unit which I undersrand, but the likely hood of me having a definitive answer given the current information I'm seeing seems doubtful.
 
dilbone said:
Yeah, I didn't mean that you said it was a ground issue but I agree with your suggestion that it could be. The only difference from no pamco issues to 2 failures within 35 miles is paint and reassembly. Pete seemed to want me to be able to give him a definitive answer as to why it failed before he'd send another unit which I undersrand, but the likely hood of me having a definitive answer given the current information I'm seeing seems doubtful.
Click to expand...

From my post #33;

"You say you painted the frame. Where does the ground wire connection from your regulator connect to? Does it connect back to bare metal on the frame? You would not want that connection going to a painted surface."
 
retiredgentleman said:
dilbone;

You're really running on the ragged edge with 14.77 volts and a 2.3 ohm coil. Speaking of Ohm's law, that gives an instantaneous current of 6.4 amps (average current would be about 1 amp with 60 degree dwell).

I use a 3.3 ohm coil, and my regulator limits voltage to 14.2 volts. This gives an instantaneous current of 4.3 amps (average current of 0.7 amps with 60 degree dwell).

Your instantaneous current is 49% higher than what I have on my bike.

I'd say your regulator has a problem itself or the regulator ground connection is of poor quality and/or intermittant. If your regulator is losing its voltage reference, it will default to full rotor current and cause the voltage to go up to 17 or 18 volts.

You say you painted the frame. Where does the ground wire connection from your regulator connect to? Does it connect back to bare metal on the frame? You would not want that connection going to a painted surface.

You need to solve the high voltage problem (regulator?/regulator ground?) These bikes run really well if the voltage never exceeds 14.2 volts. I'd say 14 .5 volts as a maximum safe voltage.

Your bad combination of extra high voltage and an extra low resistance coil adds up to trouble as you have found.
Click to expand...

Interested in how you came up with those numbers, math wise? Are you using a current slope getting your inductance dividing by amp to get microhenries then
T=(-l/r)x IN(1-(RxI/E))
That's what I've been doing working with a XS650 and I'm fumble up on it.
is there another easier process?
 
retiredgentleman said:
From my post #33;

"You say you painted the frame. Where does the ground wire connection from your regulator connect to? Does it connect back to bare metal on the frame? You would not want that connection going to a painted surface."
Click to expand...
Yes....bare metal....if memory serves me correctly. The motor to frame connection is the one I'm wondering if I'm losing intermittently only at high rpm when she's shaking like a jackhammer. Although my electronics tank could also be an intermittent ground issue even though it's hard for me to believe either one is a possibility. Stranger things have happened.


To be honest, I don't know if the problem wasn't already there since the beginning and never had the right conditions to fry a pamco. I hadn't ever really run it at higher rpm until after I had painted and reassembled it. Who knows. All I know right now is thst it starts on no more than 3 kicks cold...usually one or 2, and runs strong
 
chizler62 said:
Interested in how you came up with those numbers, math wise? Are you using a current slope getting your inductance dividing by amp to get microhenries then
T=(-l/r)x IN(1-(RxI/E))
That's what I've been doing working with a XS650 and I'm fumble up on it.
is there another easier process?
Click to expand...

No, I don't consider inductance at all. I just use Ohm's Law to calculate the amps if the current is flowing with no interruption (duty cycle 100% or 360 degrees dwell). Then since the Pamco dwell is 60 degrees, that means the current only flows for 1/6 of the time,and no current flows for 5/6 of the time. Calculate amps for no interruption and divide by 6. The current is a series of pulses, and an analog VOM will read the approximate average current.:bike:
 

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