You might want to watch this, but you've been warned...

Holy hell......

this thread is a great example of why the msf course is important to new riders....and some old hilarious riders. Maybe next we should discuss using the rear brake more than the fronts.
 
Each and every situation is different. No two situations are ever the same .I believe we should each make our own judgement at the time, based on our assessment of the situation

You only get one shot and in my experience you need to make the right choice based on the individual circumstances not a method or rule.:wink2:

One acronym I think about every time I take my ride for a blast across the countryside:

Scan- Look at as many things in and around your direction of travel.
Identify- Realize a potential obstacle.
Predict- Is said obstacle going to go "this" way, or "this" way...or neither??
Decide- Should I go "this" way or "THIS" way with more or less accel, brakes and steering inputs.
Execute- :wink2: Self explanatory.....

It seems I find myself doing it more each time I ride... (and drive).:thumbsup:
 
320 miles of twisty backroads last two days and I was working on, thinking about, steering, line picking, changing, object avoidance. for 150 miles I was 3rd rider in a 5 bike group. Even in a small group the group dynamics really add a layer of overhead. Guy in front of me wasn't an experienced rider and I was watching him fight the steering, makes for very choppy turns. Should have gotten on my soap box at lunch, but didn't.
I'll admit dropping my pace and going agonizingly slow around beautiful corners is frustrating. Caught my self more than a couple of times right up on the guy in front of me trying to slow down before riding up his rear wheel. First three bikes were XS650's :grin:
 
Holy hell......

this thread is a great example of why the msf course is important to new riders....and some old hilarious riders. Maybe next we should discuss using the rear brake more than the fronts.

definitely a must for younger arrogant riders who invariably think they know it all but are too stupid to appreciate how little they do understand. :laugh::thumbsup:
 
I'll admit dropping my pace and going agonizingly slow around beautiful corners is frustrating. Caught my self more than a couple of times right up on the guy in front of me trying to slow down before riding up his rear wheel.

Yup. I ride most evenings with my daughter. She's been riding for just about a year and is doing very well, but hasn't got to the point of carving corners just cuz it's fun.

If I'm in the lead, I'll give it hell around the corners and then slow down and wait for her to catch up. If I'm riding drag, I'll slow down and wait for her to get well ahead and then play in the corners.

First couple of times I did that, she couldn't figure out what the hell was going on. When I 'splained it to her, she just sort of shook her head...
 
... First three bikes were XS650's :grin:

Well, THAT's interesting.

40 years ago, a statistical analysis was done down here that found that the accident rate was much lower for helmetless riders, than for riders wearing helmets. They reasoned it was because of the "protected womb" effect. Riders with helmets would do things that the others wouldn't.

Maybe our ol' XS650s are safer because we can't push them like modern sportbikes...
 
No question, I have a big modern sport touring bike that will be going at least 75 if I don't look at the speedo for 5 minutes. I actually have to keep it down in 4th (6 speed) to stay near the speed limit on secondary roads. On the XS I KNOW when I am going more than 60MPH
There were about 35 bikes divided up into three groups for 150 to 200 mile back road runs each day. Full gear and helmets were strongly recommended by the ride organizers. I did not notice ANY riders without a helmet, many were ATGATT. Even with temps about 90 I think everyone wore a jacket, this ride IS kind of notorious as a fast event.
I have bought several sets of pants with protection but haven't got a pair I can stand to wear for very long, the search continues.
 
Holy hell......

this thread is a great example of why the msf course is important to new riders....and some old hilarious riders. Maybe next we should discuss using the rear brake more than the fronts.

Unless you're mentally gifted in grasping the advantages of countersteering, IMO it takes years of road experience making you a better and safer rider.
 
Even after 57 years of riding pretty much everything, any where I thought it could go, I still take an AMA advanced rider course every other summer. Still learning new stuff and polishing up old skills. Always ride ATGATT. I've also discovered that as I've aged, my speed has come down a bit but my enjoyment has increased.:thumbsup:

roy
 
Maybe it's just me but the first video looks a lot more like the results of a minor tankslapper than improper steering techique.
 
Great video, followed by some rather ignorant and biased comments, in the end my intentions are not to offend anyone here, but rather provide input for a more complete explanation of how counter-steering works, and thus a more fruitful discussion on the topic.

First things first - Counter-steering, is real, its not a myth a pseudoscience or rocket science, whether you want to face it or not thats entirely up to you, the idea here is for you to learn or understand exactly how it works and use it to your advantage, as it is a riding skill that although many perform regularly while riding, not all know how exactly it works, and how to consciously and voluntarily do it or not.

I will also add that although i respect everyone here with more years riding than others, (including myself), the notion of my shit stinks and i know more because i am older and therefore wiser is really sad, and will not help you in this particular discussion, or in learning new riding skills for that matter. Needless to say, how some very seasoned old riding dogs can watch that video and say that counter-steering doesn't exist, is really beyond me, and i truly hope you have a better grasp at this technique so that you stay on twos for many more seasons to come for your own sake and your family's.

Things change over time and if you think that everything that was taught to you some time ago stands true and effective today then i feel for you, keep doing most of your breaking with your rear brake and please enlighten us about the all knowing flat-earth society, who still believe in 2015 that the earth isn't round.

Every motorcycle handles differently, and by that i'm talking about the type of riding it was ideally meant for, that is to say a dirtbike will handle very differently than a Goldwing, different frame configuration, different suspension geometry, will yield a bike with a specific riding method in mind.
A chopper is a beautiful bike sure, but the geometry of its frame and suspension is designed for looks mainly, and a more comfortable long ride, rather than purpose-developed, such as that on a SuperTenere

I'm no physicist of any kind, but it doesnt take a genius to understand that although counter-steering applies differently to different types of bikes, Somewhere between 0~15 MHP(again depending on the bike, weight, rider balance, tires, and grip), your turning on the bike goes from turning handle bars right to turn right(such as making a u turn pulling out of gas station) to literally pull your left handle bar towards you(right handle bar away from you towards the front) in order to successfully turn right.

Now most will say, "thats silly and it doesnt make any sense, i just lean my bodyweight and push the handle bars down to the desired direction of turn, and thats how i turn my bike"

Yess but no, sometimes leaning the bike will not provide enough turning angle for you to make the turn you need to make(like what happened to the guy that hit the fire truck) and panic, along with not knowing how counter-steering works, drove him straight into the truck. I used to almost religiously lean my bike for turning, but one too many close calls, in addition to understanding how counter steering works on my own after scratching my head for months, convinced me that this is indeed the most effective and most importantly reliable method of turning my bike, at all speeds.

Others then went to say that the second video of the squid on the green Kawi ZX636R was just him going too fast and that there is no way to effectively ride that turn safely since he was going faster than the flow of traffic, FALSE

his a lack counter-steering understanding got him into that truck, combined with panic and wrong target fixation, that turn could be taken at higher speeds no problem, says I who rides a YZF-R1, a much more powerful and trickier to handle bike.

Sure both riders were indeed taking turns at speeds past their skill level, however that is not what caused the accidents, not knowing how to properly implement counter-steer is what they were missing on both cases.

Many will still argue that this isnt a very ideal method for turning, and to those i ask why is it that the most skilled riders out there, who take all sorts of arched turns, at speeds in excess of 100MPH apply counter-steering along with proper body positioning to take turns, and to that i say, because leaning can only get you so far
261kvoo.jpg

This picture of William Dunlop racing at the World of Man TT(if you look closely youll actually notice how on this left turn, his front tire is actually pointed right), clearly shows the counter-steering technique, while most of us on this forum will not be going this fast much less turning at these angles in our 40+ year old XS650's, in case you had any doubts you get the idea.

The reason for counter-steering and the bike turning the opposite way of which its front wheel is turned, is because at speeds higher than ~15MPH, the center of gravity pushes the momentum of the bike outside between the interaction of the 2 wheels if that makes any sense.

I will admit that my XS is a different monster than my R6 and my R1, and though i've honestly only ridden it for no more than 20 miles, i have ridden friend's cruisers and this method still proves valid, will i lean it to the point where im scraping the pegs and lowside because of that, thats a whole other topic, but heck thats why i got my XS in the first place, to build me a fun bike that doesn't ask me to be on the throttle all the time for it to put a grin on my face :laugh:

Ride safe fellas and stay on twos
:thumbsup:
 
Well, Jeez guys,
the ONLY way a 2-wheeled vehicle will go round a corner fast enough that it needs to be leaned over is if it's countersteered.
There's those that learned the theory in race-bike school, there's those that learned to do it instinctively when they transitioned off their tricycles as children and there's those that deny the phenomenon exists.
But they're all doing it anyway, eh?
Except us sidecar drivers.
We had to unlearn it before we countersteered into an oncoming semi's radiator grille.
 
In my MSF course we had to practice counter steering by riding up a lane of cones. They split into two lanes either left or right. A "Y" so to speak. The instructor would stand back a ways from the split and as you rode towards him, he would signal right or left. We were to push hard in the direction he pointed to turn, then push opposite to recover. Worked like a charm.

In my late thirties at the time, I was a veteran dirt and road rider of almost thirty years, and didn't believe it until I did it. Was always of the "leaning turned the bike" mindset. I am a believer now. I can corner better on my 1975 Goldwing than I could on my 1994 Ducati 900SS I had then.

IMO, both of those video accidents were avoidable with proper riding technique.

The bigger problem I see is any 16 year(USA) old with a license and the money can buy a 100HP motorcycle with no proof of experience and good out and injure or kill themselves. Should be mandatory MSF training to get a license. Sixteen to 18 years old should be limited on CC's and HP.
 
The bigger problem I see is any 16 year(USA) old with a license and the money can buy a 100HP motorcycle with no proof of experience and good out and injure or kill themselves. Should be mandatory MSF training to get a license. Sixteen to 18 years old should be limited on CC's and HP.

I had a friend that owned a '64 or '65 Ford Falcon with the 144 cube engine. They figured it rolled 5 or 6 times before it came to a a halt. He prior to his totaling of the vehicle, he'd received a string of speeding tickets.

On the other hand, I had a '66 Chevelle convertible with a 454 that ran low 12s in the 1/4 mile. I never got a ticket driving this car, and I never wrecked it.

The difference is not in the vehicle, it's in the respect given to the vehicle and its capabilities.
 
This has been a pretty good conversation. My girlfriend and I have tken many MN safety courses along with Lee Parks Total Control courses and track training with Jessica Zalusky who was an AMA racer. At higher speeds you also need the correct body position along with countersterring. If you watch the racers you see them way off their seats with their knee dragging and counterstering. As average riders there is no way we would be sticking our knee out that far and be hanging off the seat as they do. But just a little body position off the seat does wonders in the tight corners. What this does is shift the center of gravity and allows to bike to remain more upright while in the corners. Just sitting upright in the saddle will not cut it. If you look closly in the 2nd video it appears the rider starts to straighten up in the seat. There is no way he should have drifted into traffic as he did. He was going way to fast and accelerating way beyond his abilities. Bottom line is you have to practice the skills. 4 yrs ago this Oct i was hit by a motorcycle rider who had very little experience going the opposite way in a turn going way to fast. I am lucky to have my foot.
 
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- - - The bigger problem I see is any 16 year(USA) old with a license and the money can buy a 100HP motorcycle with no proof of experience and good out and injure or kill themselves. Should be mandatory MSF training to get a license. Sixteen to 18 years old should be limited on CC's and HP.

Hi ben,
used to be that way in Saskatchewan, a 16 year old could pass the written test, go out and buy a Hyabusa and convert himself into a smear of forensic evidence.
Then SGI fixed that, well, kinda. He can still buy the Hyabusa but he can only ride it in daylight and with parental permission. And yeah, the licence plate has to wear a little red L plate.
Size & power limitations? No way.
 
This is a good physics exercise.
Let's look again at gggGary's snapshot of the bike's and truck's situation just moments before impact.
29F7D41C00000578-3139121-image-a-32_1435248624845.jpg


Now, establish some data factoids.
(Sorry metric guys, you'll have to fend for yourselves)

1 G = 32 feet per second per second = Acceleration due to gravity
1 mph = 1.467 feet per second

Now comes the fuzzy analysis.
Best guess estimates from examining the video (numbingly over and over and over):
The motorcycle speed, approaching impact = 44 mph (65 fps)
Viewing the video, with stopwatch, trying to account for the slight fisheye imaging, was able to guesstimate the 65 foot travel over one second.
This gave the estimate of the distance to impact = 40 feet
Which means a time to impact = 0.6 seconds

The motorcycle is continuing its turn, after exiting the curve, and appears to have a lean angle of 20°.
The tangent of 20° = 0.36
Which gives the centripetal acceleration from that existing lean angle = 0.36 G

This pic shows the current path to impact in red.
I'd like to be at least 4 feet to the right of that, to clear handlebars and such from the truck.
To do that, means following the track in green.

CounterSteer04.jpg



So, let's calculate the amount of acceleration to get that additional distance to clear truck = 4 feet
where: s = distance, a = acceleration, t = time
s = 1/2 a * t * t <--(standard formula when acceleration is constant)
a = 2s / (t*t) <--(transformed to solve for 'a')
a = 2 * 4ft / (0.6sec * 0.6sec) <--(plug in our values)
8 / 0.36 = 22.2 fps/s = 0.69 G <--(simplify and solve)

Acceleration needed to travel 4 feet in 0.6 seconds = 0.69 G

With the bike's existing centripetal acceleration at 0.36G, then adding the additional acceleration of 0.69G, we get:
Total acceleration needed = 0.36G + 0.69G = 1.05G

However, the typical G limits for street compound tires = 0.85G
Which means that there's not enough traction to achieve the escape route.

It gets worse if you account for the time losses due to:
- Application of corrective countersteer
- Time required for the motorcycle to achieve the new lean angle

In summary, my feeling is that, for this particular snapshot, an impact is inevitable.

Which explains why I grit my teeth everytime I see that pic...
 
impressive twomany:thumbsup: I concur, although I've forgotten how to calculate the dynamics of it a long time back.:umm:
My gut instinct tells me that counter-steer, or not, a collision is surely inevitable for most average bike riders in that particular situation.


Even if it was actually possible to clear the truck using counter steering in that particular situatin , I would say on the basis of the information available and the actual outcome, that the risk of a head-on collision is just too great to choose a counter-steer option.


I don't know exactly what I would do in such a situation. My physical reactions are still very quick but who knows how we would react in a split second?
i'd like to think that I would have the sense to realise that driving straight across the front of the truck was the most likely option to have the best outcome .

A head on collision or going under the wheels at a combined speed of 80+mph is not good odds for a biker:yikes:
 
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