Fix Stock Charging System or Buy A PMA

My Suzuki runs a factory PMA setup. To prevent excess juice from getting everything overly warm it's necessary to use a good bit of that juice up with lighting. Running LEDs will make the problem far worse. In Suzuki land we use an aftermarket upgrade regulator from Polaris to rid ourselves of the extra heat crap. And while pointless ignitions have their advantages, they are far from "more reliable" than points. The forum is full of such threads. Points are dirt cheap, work well, and are very unlikely to put you on the back of a truck. Spares can be carried for 20-25 dollars total, and you can work on them, as opposed to those 200-300 dollar systems. To hear some people tell it, it's a wonder these bikes ever ran from the factory.

I was afraid that would be the main option. I love the inconspicuous LEDs (when the bike is off) I put in my frame (cut off the loop and put the LEDs there), plus the brightness is unbelievable. I am trying to research how to avoid this abundant amount of heat though, without having to use it with lighting. Are there any other options for this dissipation of heat?

On a side note, my points and ignition are not giving me any problems, yet....knock on wood.

hooser said:

And while were at it least post for all the stock systems that went bad, have a friend that was a Yamaha service shop. Said they had there share of problem too. Are you still running points?

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If you notice, there is an area at the bottom of every one of my posts, that states what equipment I have on my bike. I use a Pamco with the E-advance. Its a high quality ignition, and it does a fine job on my bike.

However, in days gone by, I have used points on cars, trucks and motorcycles. Points always worked for me. I had a 1976 XS500C , with points ignition, for 13 years and it ran with no problems at all. In many past posts on this site, I've always said that points ignition will run your XS650 just fine. Because points are mechanical they do wear and require occasional maintenance/adjustment.

MplsMurr said:

I was afraid that would be the main option. I love the inconspicuous LEDs (when the bike is off) I put in my frame (cut off the loop and put the LEDs there), plus the brightness is unbelievable. I am trying to research how to avoid this abundant amount of heat though, without having to use it with lighting. Are there any other options for this dissipation of heat?

On a side note, my points and ignition are not giving me any problems, yet....knock on wood.

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"other options for dissipation of heat".............yes, just don't generate more heat than is needed by the bike's electrical load.

weaselbeak hit the nail right on its head. As I explained earlier, a PMA generates uncontrolled amps. from its stator. Lets say as an example; a bike with a PMA going down the highway is generating 14 amps. Many bikers use LED's now which use very little amps. So, maybe the bike is actually only using 7 amps. The extra unused 7 amps has to go somewhere. The rec/reg units job is to dissipate that 7 amps (98 watts). If the rec/reg has the ability to shed the 98 watts of extra heat, then all is well. However, if the rec/reg can't handle the extra heat, then bad things happen.

I like LEDs. I use an LED taillight/brake light and licence plate light. My bike uses about 8.77 amps when driving down the road. But because my alternator has controlled amps coming from the stator (regulator has reduced the rotor current and reduced the magnetic field in the rotor), my alternator is only generating 8.77 amps.

My stock system is balanced, only producing enough amps as required. The PMA is over producing, so its not balanced.

For guys that want to strip the bike down as much as possible and use LEDs etc. , then the stock alternator system is a better way to go.

I don't know what modern bikes do as far as a PMA system. Logic tells me that if the bike consumes say 7 amps, then the designer likely designed the PMA to generate only 7 amps. Then the system would be balanced. 7 amps produced and 7 amps consumed.
No excess heat to worry about.

MplsMurr said:

I was afraid that would be the main option. I love the inconspicuous LEDs (when the bike is off) I put in my frame (cut off the loop and put the LEDs there), plus the brightness is unbelievable. I am trying to research how to avoid this abundant amount of heat though, without having to use it with lighting. Are there any other options for this dissipation of heat?

On a side note, my points and ignition are not giving me any problems, yet....knock on wood.

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Using a high output h4 headlamp and not a newer LED unit is a good way to soak up juice.

A lot of bikes that un PMA's run the PMA in the oil. My Harley for example runs the PMA in the primary oil. This helps keep the stator cool. The reg/rec is mounted out in the open, low on the frame in front of the engine. This keeps the reg/rec cool.
On the Honda the PMA/ ignition, the stator also powers and triggers the CDI. It runs inside a cover but not in oil. The reg/rec is under a side cover but has good air flow.
I think part off the heat issue on the XS650's comes from mounting. Put the reg/rec out in the open. Not in a box no matter how many vents you put in it or under the bike or behind the engine.
The under and behind the engine places get air flow but it's hot air off the engine.
I have a thermo dip stick that dogbunny sells, on a 70 degree day the oil temp gets up around 200+ degrees. This temp in the oil gets passed to the outside of the engine plus any heat from combustion. Air flow from the engine cooling will be very hot. Putting the reg/rec in this hot air flow won't cool it much if any.
Mounting it out away from the hot air flow and letting it get a 70 degree air flow will help greatly in keeping things cool.
Leo

Leo I'll add the present tendency to run the exhaust higher doesn't help. I've been amazed we don't hear more about a vapor lock with the pipes being as close to the carbs as some have them. But I guess it would be hard to vapor lock the OEM carbs?

I've seen newer bikes with the regulator well up front. My Suzuki PMA runs in oil, as do many. Not only does that guarantee the PMA will be at least as hot as the oil, it shunts off it's excess juice as heat into that oil, adding to the problem. A PMA at it's best would be in air with a newer series type regulator. Add to this, that IMO, aftermarket PMAs are mostly cheap Chinese junk, and I'd go with stock on a 650 anyhow.

"aftermarket PMAs are mostly cheap Chinese junk", have you ever seen a powerdynamo from Germany? Of course not. they been making these from 1999, for just about every bike out there... take a look some time. www.powerdynamo.biz

hooser said:

"aftermarket PMAs are mostly cheap Chinese junk", have you ever seen a powerdynamo from Germany? Of course not. they been making these from 1999, for just about every bike out there... take a look some time. www.powerdynamo.biz

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I said mostly, and did not mention a German made product of which most of us have never heard. BTW, what do they cost? There are reasonable limits to what I would spend. With LED lighting and a good battery I could run all damn day on total loss.

I sell them for $550.00, price varies with the EURO. What I find is the biggest problem with the site is that when ever you try and introduce a new product and as I said they are not new (1999) there is so much BS from people like retired putting it down with out even trying it. I typed in PAMCO Problems in the search window,,, you really want to use one of them? I'll pass. I run specials when I have to reorder and can drop the prepay price some. PM if you ever want to try one.

hooser said:

I typed in PAMCO Problems in the search window,,, you really want to use one of them? I'll pass.

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People who read and use the instructions properly don't have to write threads asking why their pamco's don't work.

I bet 99.9% of those threads you searched were damaged because the instructions weren't adhered to, and 99% of those 99.9% were installed in line with a PMA, again the instructions were not adhered to and the PMA voltage done the damage to the Pamco.

I have no experience with Powerdynamo on my XS, as my Powerdynamo PMA is still in its box.

However, I do have a Powerdynamo PMA/CDI in my 75 RD 350, and it works great. My buddy also has one in his RD 350, and another buddy had one in his Moto Morini 3 1/2. Between the three of us, there has been no problems whatsoever with any of these systems.

The stock RD alternator is very similar to the stock XS alternator, so is both heavy and bulky, and also needs a battery for the regulator/rotor excitation to work as intended. The Powerdynamo is much lighter and much more compact, in fact one could shave maybe 20 mm from the alternator cover for a slimmer engine.
With a Powerdynamo CDI setup, no battery is required, not even a troublesome capacitor. So the total weight saving potential is considerable, and surely will outweigh the added load on the engine (maybe 0.25 hp....) I'm pretty sure that losing maybe 15-20 lbs will compensate for the minuscule hp loss.
Obviously no battery on an XS means no electric starter, so that would save even more weight if kick only is acceptable.

My experience with the RDs may not be 100% relevant, as the crankcase of a 2-stroke will be cooler than on a 4-stroke. The Moto Morini, on the other hand, is a 4-stroke V-twin, so should be pretty much equal to an XS with regards to temperatures and potential for overheating.

Powerdynamo actually offers 3 versions for the XS, a pure PMA, a PMA/ CDI for stock 360 deg firing, and a PMA/ CDI for 277 degree rephased engines. I am convinced this is one of the best solutions available, better than anything HHB or Pamco has on offer.

With that said it makes me wonder do I want anyone trying mine. I have been working on bikes now for 47 years. I never had a forum to go to the 1st time something did not work. We figured it out or paid someone who could. That a lone was a learning experience.

retiredgentleman said:

I'm referring to the PMA sellers that source their parts from China/Taiwan, such as Mikesxs/XS650 Direct and HHB.

I don't remember ever seeing a thread on this site from someone that bought a Powerdynamo product. Is it possible to have a buyer of the XS650 Powerdynamo product post a thread on this site, so we can all hear an unbiased report, either positive or negative. If you are selling a quality product, lets get some feedback from the happy buyers.

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I just bought one from Gary,,And to be honest,, I am impressed with the quality of the parts. (German,, NOT Asian)
Now I have NOT finished the install yet so I cannot truthfully comment on anything else,
BUT,,,
I do believe I made the right choice in buying this product from Gary. He came highly recommended from another seller here.
I will,, when done,,do a full breakdown of what happens when I fire this up for the first time in 30+ years. Honestly I think it will be fairly trouble free and reliable. I also DID look at all the other systems out there before buying it.
I do have a thread on it here as well. Been working a lot so no time to finish it till next weekend.

You'd lose that bet. We are not all incompetent, and lots of them have fried on their own, including twice just for me. His warranty is fine, means little when you lose weeks waiting, and lose faith in the product as well.

Thank you all for your help, input, and feedback. You all have been a big help. To let everyone know, I just purchased a NOS charging system for a price I could not refuse. Now, with that being said and depending how this turns out, if I made a mistake and it breaks down or what have you...I will be going to the ignition/charging system from Hooser/Powerdynamo. The only thing I know I will regret is NOT having the option to kick the bike over if the battery gets too low.

On a side note, since the case will be open and I have not changed sprockets nor the chain, what do you all think of this:

Volar Motorsport O-Ring Chain.
Front Sprocket: 17 Teeth
Rear Sprocket: 34 Teeth
O-Ring Chain: 530x104

Sold as a package for $75

Link:
https://jet.com/product/detail/7868...gclid=CKvJ7ca9r80CFQ6maQodL9wDIg&gclsrc=aw.ds

P.S. If asking a new question within the same thread is looked down upon, please let me know.

Have the riviting tool for the master link?

Quote "The only thing I know I will regret is NOT having the option to kick the bike over if the battery gets too low."

Your battery should never get too low!

Why could you not kick start the bike? There is no reason to be surprised by a battery with a low charge. Put a permanent voltmeter on your bike, and glance at it occasionally as you ride. As you ride down the road, the voltmeter should read 14.1 to 14.5 volts. If its in that range, your battery will always be fully charged.

I've been riding bikes with electric start, for 23 years now, and they have always started using the starter motor.

You would be better off to buy a 33 sprocket for the rear. Its more suited to general all around riding.

You should keep this thread, for adding more information, as you get the new charging system up and running. Its always nice to read the last chapter in a book.

Yes, it is much more appropriate to start a new thread when you change the topic.Less confusing for everyone.

Why buy a chain that requires riveting with a special tool? I have always used a clip type master lick, and never had any problems.