Don't wanna be smokey Bandit!

Hi all, really appreciate that this group is here! So I have another question for you guys....

It's two fold really,

1) my left side is smoking, not massively but enough to where any more than a minute and the garage needs airing out. This started after my 277 rephase job and I did nothing to the very top end at the time except reassemble. So the question is.... What can I check before any tear down works.

2) if I do need to open up the top end what would be a suggestion for a) things that I may need to do/replace to stop the the smoking and b) what should I replace on an 83 with 7k miles that has probably never been done before while I'm in there

Thank you all so much in advance, it's seriously appreciated!

Thanks
Tonino

I'm surprised you say you had the engine out of the bike and taken apart, but did not do a top end re-build at the same time. When you consider the amount of work/time involved to remove, take apart and re-install an engine, its very wise to replace worn parts while the engine is open on the work bench.

That bike must have sat for a lot of years with only 7 k miles. Sitting around is very bad for an engine. Rubber parts such as valve stem seals deteriorate. Rust forms on valve seats, valve stems etc.

As a minimum. when you had the engine open, you should have replaced the valve stem seals, and lapped the valves/valve seats. The front camchain guide often needs replacing.

suxelp said:

Hi all, really appreciate that this group is here! So I have another question for you guys....

It's two fold really,

1) my left side is smoking, not massively but enough to where any more than a minute and the garage needs airing out. This started after my 277 rephase job and I did nothing to the very top end at the time except reassemble. So the question is.... What can I check before any tear down works.

2) if I do need to open up the top end what would be a suggestion for a) things that I may need to do/replace to stop the the smoking and b) what should I replace on an 83 with 7k miles that has probably never been done before while I'm in there

Thank you all so much in advance, it's seriously appreciated!

Thanks
Tonino

Click to expand...

Hi Tonino,
Q1) how far since the rephase? Give the rings a chance to bed in before going medieval on the engine.
Q2a) First, check the rings, they are the usual culprit. Then the valve seals, they are next in the suspect lineup.
Q2b) First, check the speedo to see if it's the one that the bike left the factory with.
I'd suspect that low mileage without good corroboration.
What you'll HAVE to do when you pull the head & barrels is get new gaskets.
What you SHOULD do after you've checked the rod ends, main bearings and camchain guide for wear (although you surely did these things during the rephase?) is swap out the 4 composite head nut washers for solid copper washers or for Dowty washers
and replace the valve seals if you decide to remove the valves.
And finally, re-check the head nut torque 1,000 miles down the road.
PS. Accursed automatic spell-checker! If I type in rephase the moronic thing changes it to rephrase so I have to forgive you guys, it's not that you didn't know the difference, it's that you didn't notice the auto-checker screwing things up for you.

Somehow I think he knows that now RG..........

gggGary said:

Somehow I think he knows that now RG..........

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Apparently not Gary........................as he says,"if I do need to open up the top end ". He's not convinced that the engine must come out again. He still thinks It was OK to open up an engine and not replace worn parts. He's hoping someone will post an amazing cure to his problem, that will work without taking out the engine for a second time.

There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it right the second time.

retiredgentleman said:

He still thinks It was OK to open up an engine and not replace worn parts. He's hoping someone will post an amazing cure to his problem, that will work without taking out the engine for a second time.

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Pssst, got a secret to tell ya.... Not everyone is an expert, in fact, for some of us it's the first motorcycle we have had whilst having two babies and a life altering move to a foreign country to help a dying family member (we will miss her xx). So my girl Jenny (my 83 XS) is one of the pleasures I have that is my thing and yes, I confess, i am an amateur at this but love it and do like to ask questions from the more experienced at times. And hell yea, I would of loved an amazing cure and find that sometimes when there are others with clearly more experience it is wise to ask them before doing even what you may think is the right thing just in case there is the possibility of one. Hell, when I did the rephase it was during the few hours of the night that I had in the dinning room and I definitely had no clue what to look for, this is my learning experience with the old gal and even then I had to do the tear down and re assembly a few times as I was not getting things right, oh well. All this is just a human defensive retort and so you may understand that, like I said before, some of us are by no means well versed in this topic and are just asking for help. All constructive advice is well and truly appreciated. I will make a list of things from the XS shops online and ask for advice on that parts list soon, again, thanks all

suxelp said:

Pssst, got a secret to tell ya.... - - - some of us are by no means well versed in this topic and are just asking for help. All constructive advice is well and truly appreciated. I will make a list of things from the XS shops online and ask for advice on that parts list soon, again, thanks all

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Hi Tonino,
don't let them get to you, eh? Just maybe all your bike needs is a couple hundred more miles to let the rings bed in and WTF does a little oil smoke matter anyway, so long as the bike runs good and don't leak oil like my old Britbikes did.
And quit running the thing in the garage for longer than it takes to put it in gear and ride it out of there, it'll overheat unless it's moving.

I'd say you're getting advice from the wrong people. Since this is your first motorcycle, who was it that suggested you spend a lot of money on a re phase, or did you just fall victim to slick marketing by after market shops? Its OK to be a novice,we have all been there, but you should recognize when you lack the knowledge to get into tasks that are challenging for you.

Whenever a car,truck,lawnmower or motorcycle is to be taken apart for maintenance, its appropriate to get some books and read up on what is required when the engine is apart. Any internal combustion device needs to be checked carefully when its opened up to see what parts are worn out or need machining, etc.

Go to your local library and get a book on basic engine repair. A book like that will give you the information you need to know when you take an engine apart. Web sites such as www.biker.net have the Yamaha Service Manual for the XS650. That service manual contains all the details on inspecting and measuring the engine internal parts.

When you buy an old motorcycle there are a few steps to follow. First step is read up on the shop manuals and service manuals. Second step is to do the maintenance needed so that you can drive the bike in its stock form. The third step is spend money on modifications/upgrades that you think will make the bike run better or look "cool".
You seemed to have jumped right to the third step.

fredintoon said:

Hi Tonino,
Q1) how far since the rephase? Give the rings a chance to bed in before going medieval on the engine.
Q2a) First, check the rings, they are the usual culprit. Then the valve seals, they are next in the suspect lineup.
Q2b) First, check the speedo to see if it's the one that the bike left the factory with.
I'd suspect that low mileage without good corroboration.
What you'll HAVE to do when you pull the head & barrels is get new gaskets.
What you SHOULD do after you've checked the rod ends, main bearings and camchain guide for wear (although you surely did these things during the rephase?) is swap out the 4 composite head nut washers for solid copper washers or for Dowty washers
and replace the valve seals if you decide to remove the valves.
And finally, re-check the head nut torque 1,000 miles down the road.
PS. Accursed automatic spell-checker! If I type in rephase the moronic thing changes it to rephrase so I have to forgive you guys, it's not that you didn't know the difference, it's that you didn't notice the auto-checker screwing things up for you.

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Hi Fredintoon, I have only done about 300 miles since then as right after i did it we had a lots going on and then it was in Lithuania in a van for a bit till we got settled and then other stuff so yea, only about 300 miles. Today i was able to do a compression test and got 150 even on each side, that would eliminate it being the rings would it not? I will look up online how to check the speedo and post what i find. regarding the rod ends, main bearings and camchain guide... everything looked really good as far as tightness, no wobble or wear or cracks or rust when i had it apart. I guess what i will do next is try and change the valve seals using a method i found via google which is to do through the adjustment covers without cracking the engine open, the video on youtube is entitled "how to change the valve stem seals on an XS650 (without removing the engine." Thanks man, Tonino

fredintoon said:

Hi Tonino,
don't let them get to you, eh? Just maybe all your bike needs is a couple hundred more miles to let the rings bed in and WTF does a little oil smoke matter anyway, so long as the bike runs good and don't leak oil like my old Britbikes did.
And quit running the thing in the garage for longer than it takes to put it in gear and ride it out of there, it'll overheat unless it's moving.

Click to expand...

Cheers for that, im all good, besides, he is making a whole lot of assumptions... never mind. I have taken her out for a bit but only in the confines of a large garage estate as i need to get a pass from the state controlled testing centre here before i can, legally anyway, get out on the road. Before i do those seals i will probably just get the timing spot on again as i have been messing with the ignition timing the past couple days and one more issue i have is the rear tire, i ordered two new tires from a yamaha shop here and it took a year to get them and i finally got the shop to put on the new rubber but once i got them on there was trouble in the rear so i have to find a solution to that....

the bloody thing has the same measurements as the one that was on it but is not fitting right. with the right amount of chain slack, i think 20mm was the spec in the middle, and then the right side lined up on the marks the same as the left the tire is well pushed against the chain guard. i notices straight away though that the tire was not lined up within the swing arm and was noticeably closer to the left so i just adjusted the right side till the tire was centre and it just clears everything but the marks are out! Next time i get a moment i will go and try to assess if the tire is straight to the frame with the way it is now or with the marks lined up and the rubber hitting the chain guard. The new tire also seams to have a slight flare at the edges of the tread that were not on the old one unless it was just worn away.

if i get the tire sorted i will just go and try out the test here to see what they say!

Hi Tonino,
Once I'd got the back tire sorted (some 130/90-16s are fatter than others and with the fattest of mine I had to take a prybar to the chainguard to get clearance.)
I'd just go ride the effin' thing. Really, how badly does it smoke on the road, eh?
And although it's really none of my business, HTF did you end up in Lithuania?

what I'd pay for a time machine trip back to when @retiredgentleman made mis-steps in unfamiliar territory.

all joking aside, the abrasiveness is really
a bit much. the latter portion of his name might be a bit of a misnomer. retiredaxegrinder might be more appropriate.

suxelp said:

The bloody thing has the same measurements as the one that was on it but is not fitting right. with the right amount of chain slack, i think 20mm was the spec in the middle, and then the right side lined up on the marks the same as the left the tire is well pushed against the chain guard. i notices straight away though that the tire was not lined up within the swing arm and was noticeably closer to the left so i just adjusted the right side till the tire was centre and it just clears everything but the marks are out! Next time i get a moment i will go and try to assess if the tire is straight to the frame with the way it is now or with the marks lined up and the rubber hitting the chain guard. The new tire also seams to have a slight flare at the edges of the tread that were not on the old one unless it was just worn away.

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Check to see that the tire was mounted true to the rim... not the first time a shop has mis-aligned a tire and it's not sitting straight. Or if it's a cheap tire, it may itself be the issue? Just a thought...good luck.

Hi again, I got the tire issue sorted, just bent the chain guard a bit. Was all exited as it went quick so adjusted the timing and now when I start her she does come alive but the tiniest bit of throttle and she stalls out. Could the timing being a bit off do that? Cheers all, Tonino

Jesus... In addition to the above, when I hold cardboard to the exhaust while running it almost sticks there with equall air being pushed out and in. I don't understand as when I started this, just before getting new rubber on I was riding her around here and she wasn't stalling at all. Since the new tires I've just messed with timing. Grrrrr, thanks for your patience!

suxelp said:

Hi again, I got the tire issue sorted, just bent the chain guard a bit. Was all exited as it went quick so adjusted the timing and now when I start her she does come alive but the tiniest bit of throttle and she stalls out. Could the timing being a bit off do that? Cheers all, Tonino

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Hi Tonino,
perhaps, but bad timing would be more likely to make the bike run poorly at all throttle openings than to stall off idle.
I'd suspect partially bunged up slow running and enrichment circuits in the carbs instead.
When were the carbs last cleaned? Thoroughly, checked the slow running needle EPA plugs removed, all apart, bodies in an ultrasonic tank cleaned?

suxelp said:

Hi all,

1) my left side is smoking, not massively but enough to where any more than a minute and the garage needs airing out. This started after my 277 rephase job and I did nothing to the very top end at the time except reassemble. So the question is.... What can I check before any tear down works.

Thanks
Tonino

Click to expand...

I don't think that anyone has mentioned it yet but its very common after a top end rebuild to get oil leaking into one or both cylinders from the central camchain tunnel.
One owner Anlaf had to rebuild his engine 3 or 4 times to eliminate the problem . A compression test or leakdown might confirm

If either of your plugs is getting sooty and wet with oil there is a very strong likelihood you have a head gasket leak.

When rebuilding the top end make sure that you flat the mating surfaces of both the cylinder and head on wet n dry to eliminate any high spots and spot any low areas where potential leaks can occur. I usually glue a sheet of wet n dry to a piece of plywood or glass using spraymount.

I would definitely advocate using Threebond around the central camchain tunnel and each of the stud holes of the cylinder both the cylinder and head. make sure that you retorque the head after the first 60-100 miles or so

Flipping heck, needed a bit of petrol, must be the stress of trying to get it done before havin to get the kiddies! Right side is running a bit cooler than left with slight back fire after givin it throttle now n again the rpm will rise till I hit the throttle for a quick blast and it comes back down... I will get this!!!

A good compression test doesn't necessarily mean the rings and bores are good. If you read up a little on compression testing, you will probably run across the tip about adding a spoonful of oil to a cylinder if it reads low. If that brings the reading up, the bore and/or rings are bad. If it doesn't, the valves are most likely leaking. The added oil temporarily improves the seal of the rings and brings your reading up. Well, if badly worn, the rings already have lots of oil all over them and that can mask their true condition. I found this on one 650 I worked on. Compression test was good but the thing would oil foul it's plugs within 15 to 20 miles of riding. When we tore it down, it was a mess inside, badly worn cylinders and rings.

I did a compression test yesterday and got an even 150 on each side. Thing is that last week before the new tires I rode around here for half n hour and all seemed OK besides the bit of smoke. Now after fiddling the issue seems to be right side running a bit cooler with the slight back fire. Made me think I did something but all I did was mess with the timing. Maybe I just need to take a break and go over all the comments you nice folk have left and look at it anew. Thanks all