Think about being SAFE when building and it will still come out cool

I am doing a bike for a young guy here in New Jersey and is a very cool looking bike with hard tail and springer. He bought it and his buddy who I helped out asked if I could finish up the build.
Now guys I know you want to try other parts from other bikes and want to change it up but you got to keep safe riding in your head too. This bike has a older ironhead rear wheel that someone tried to modify and they had the right idea but you have to change everything on a wheel just not the bearings when making a change from 1" to 3/4 or 3/4 to 20mm. The collar inside of the wheel is in there for a reason and it has to match the bearings if not it will flop around in there and will damage the wheel. This wheel has 1/16" play in it and can go up and down when riding . If you are going to change a wheel to fit what you are building bearings - spacers - and inside collar all must be the same size and if wheel has spacers that go into wheel they also have to match. In the past when I had no parts I just went to the local machine shop and took the parts and explained what I needed and they made it. The force from the sprocket alone would have torn up this wheel. Doing things half way will bite you in the ass and doing 65 mph with no front brake and rear wheel comes apart I THINK there will be some road rash. There are so many wheels that fit on a XS650 and you have to keep in mind HARD TAIL 8 1/2" spacing PLATE TO PLATE TCB hard tail. Stock wheel around 3 1/2 hub - spacers - adjusters - brake parts if disk does not leave you a lot of space. I have done 4" hub and it worked and was a Harley wheel. This wheel is more than 4" Hub so we have to look at other options .
Think SAFE and Keep Choppin
Rich

It's endemic. Choppers are very "hip" right now with the younger group, and they are convinced (through conditioning with the "everyone gets a trophy" generation) that they are able to do anything.

Here's the thing. Building bikes isn't magic. It's not rocket science. These are VERY simple machines. But even simple machines are dangerous if you don't use them properly.

It would be nice if more young guys would do their own small mods and have someone with the skills and tools help them with the more critical stuff more (And I mean teach them, not get hired to do it), but there's a lot of ego and jumping in with both feet going on now.

(I won't mention names related to the fork that I did repairs on that a kid built with a 110v self shield welder that quite literally split when I gave it a little force...but he's very "Chopular")

Daddy hit the nail though. Be safe guys. Take time. Learn as you go because the knowledge is what will keep you alive.

Metal Wizard Machine said:

It's endemic. Choppers are very "hip" right now with the younger group, and they are convinced (through conditioning with the "everyone gets a trophy" generation) that they are able to do anything.

Click to expand...

I am at the beginning of the 7th place trophy generation. I am also into the whole "xs650 chopper". Not all of us are like that. I am in the Army, and we are having an issue dealing with new guys in the ranks that are the exact people you are describing. We are in a very large cultural change and I fell social media is a huge part of it.

Good thread, DaddyG.

I'd like to add concern over proper geometries involving braking systems. If anyone remembers member Pristic, he was having all sorts of cataclysmic issues with his rear brake. Pulled/broken/twisted brake actuator rod, snapped brake cam, wheel getting shoved rearward, ...etc. A real problem issue for him. It wasn't until he posted pics when he sold the bike that the problem became obvious. And now he's gone, and can't be informed.

Have a look at his rear brake stay, and the non-90° angle with the axle:
From this thread: http://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-bobber-for-sale-nsw.31574/

meanEG said:

I am at the beginning of the 7th place trophy generation. I am also into the whole "xs650 chopper". Not all of us are like that. I am in the Army, and we are having an issue dealing with new guys in the ranks that are the exact people you are describing. We are in a very large cultural change and I fell social media is a huge part of it.

Click to expand...

Im not 35 but Im not 25. Somewhere in between. Social Media is wreaking havoc on our society. There is no such thing as privacy anymore, ppl are far too competitive and disloyal, and relationships are hard to maintain in a world where ppl think something better is right around the corner.

For the life of me, I cant understand how ppl have pages with 500 pics of their face on it. I have a few pics of me on my instagram, but they arent of the "look at my cheekbones" type. Yeah, hell in a handbasket.

Good insight guys. And I like Metal's take on it, have somebody teach you, don't just pay them. There are so many skills in this regard I'd love to learn, just need to find the right person to teach me. Be safe out there.

meanEG said:

I am at the beginning of the 7th place trophy generation. I am also into the whole "xs650 chopper". Not all of us are like that. I am in the Army, and we are having an issue dealing with new guys in the ranks that are the exact people you are describing. We are in a very large cultural change and I fell social media is a huge part of it.

Click to expand...

First off, thanks for your service. The best of the best for sure.

Secondly, I apologize if I gave the impression that ALL people around this age group are like this. It's absolutely not all. My brother is 24 and has awesome work ethics, goals, etc. My sister is 22, has a masters degree in education and is a teacher. You're a soldier who obvious has goals, integrity and ethics to look up to for most.

Unfortunately, these ilk are the minority with this generation.

I have hired a few younger guys to work for me here and there and almost every one is too busy playing on their phone to work... and they can't figure out WHY I'm pissed when I keep busting them facebook and instagram farting around instead of what I pay them for. I had to point out to one that my 9 year old is a harder worker to make a point.

Social Media is ABSOLUTELY a huge part of the issue. It's created an entire generation of "personas" instead of people. Having a facebook and instagram account is fine... but when it's your entire life and you need to prove to others that you have skills/value/worth based on your followers... well, it's gotten pathetic.

Metal Wizard Machine said:

...conditioning with the "everyone gets a trophy" generation...

Click to expand...

I've been curious about the long-term effects of the NEA's 'Effort Based Grading' system.

I saw a woman on 'Shark Tank', hawking a really bad product, and not getting positive responses.

She was pleading: "But, I put a lot of EFFORT into this!!!".

As though that was the core value...

TwoManyXS1Bs said:

I've been curious about the long-term effects of the NEA's 'Effort Based Grading' system.

I saw a woman on 'Shark Tank', hawking a really bad product, and not getting positive responses.

She was pleading: "But, I put a lot of EFFORT into this!!!".

As though that was the core value...

Click to expand...

Exactly. Trying doesn't make success. SUCCESS makes success. We're doing a large disservice to this country and our kids by raising them in a coddled environment where words like "No" and "Fail" are not allowed in our vocabularies as responsible parties to raising them.

I have a 9 year old, a 5 year old and a 3 year old. I'm finding that it's harder than expected to raise them the way I want because this societal shift towards helicopter parenting and coddling inches its way in no matter what.

I got a call from my sons teacher once because he mentioned that I told him that he failed at something (I can't remember what it was) that I was trying to get him to do. She was VERY concerned about his "mental state" in response, and tried politely lecturing me about how "we can't raise kids in an unsupportive environment and expect them to turn out well." I explained by that I raise them in an environment where they are told that things that are worth doing are worth doing properly, that failure is part of life and that it's OK to fail because that's human.... and that the important thing isn't avoiding failure, it's learning from our mistakes and failures, because that's how we grow.

She thought I was an unsupportive and borderline abusive parent for that.

But my 9 year old is the only kid in his class who is completely dismantling and restoring a 1971 Rupp Speedster minibike, and learning the correct and safe way to do each step along the way because he understands the VALUE of having the knowledge to do it right and safely. I feel like that's a mentality that we used to have as a nation, and now we don't.

Now we have instagram where someone who is hacking their way through things posts up a video of them doing something, hashtags the hell out of it with a million cocky tags and then get's VERY upset when someone points out that they are using a tool improperly.

wow this went off in a weird direction. I wasn't taking any insults to anything, no worries. I am 35 years old, when I had my shop opened up in 2008, I seen the changes. I had a few 18 year old guys working for me part time. I've seen it first hand as well.

Metal Wizard Machine said:

Exactly. Trying doesn't make success. SUCCESS makes success. We're doing a large disservice to this country and our kids by raising them in a coddled environment where words like "No" and "Fail" are not allowed in our vocabularies as responsible parties to raising them.

I have a 9 year old, a 5 year old and a 3 year old. I'm finding that it's harder than expected to raise them the way I want because this societal shift towards helicopter parenting and coddling inches its way in no matter what.

I got a call from my sons teacher once because he mentioned that I told him that he failed at something (I can't remember what it was) that I was trying to get him to do. She was VERY concerned about his "mental state" in response, and tried politely lecturing me about how "we can't raise kids in an unsupportive environment and expect them to turn out well." I explained by that I raise them in an environment where they are told that things that are worth doing are worth doing properly, that failure is part of life and that it's OK to fail because that's human.... and that the important thing isn't avoiding failure, it's learning from our mistakes and failures, because that's how we grow.

She thought I was an unsupportive and borderline abusive parent for that.

But my 9 year old is the only kid in his class who is completely dismantling and restoring a 1971 Rupp Speedster minibike, and learning the correct and safe way to do each step along the way because he understands the VALUE of having the knowledge to do it right and safely. I feel like that's a mentality that we used to have as a nation, and now we don't.

Now we have instagram where someone who is hacking their way through things posts up a video of them doing something, hashtags the hell out of it with a million cocky tags and then get's VERY upset when someone points out that they are using a tool improperly.

Click to expand...

I feel the exact same way, I think we "became best buds". I would have not been so nice to the teacher.

Immagine all the stupid kids that were raised by the government and the "everything is going to be ok" people. Now put them in the Army where you have a bigger mission to do. You need to know how to react to decisions that you make, Things can go bad. You will be responsible. There are results from your actions that others will have to live by. Its not ok for you to always be right. The real problem, I feel, is that the younger guys in here now are going to be the 1SG's in 20 years, already weak minded and no backbones. It wont be an exact 1 for 1 year wise, as I feel the ones that stick around will be better than their peers in 20 years, but in 40 or 50 years the military is going to be even more pussified than it already is. Enough of the Military stuff before I get brought up on charges...lol

TwoManyXS1Bs said:

Good thread, DaddyG.

I'd like to add concern over proper geometries involving braking systems. If anyone remembers member Pristic, he was having all sorts of cataclysmic issues with his rear brake. Pulled/broken/twisted brake actuator rod, snapped brake cam, wheel getting shoved rearward, ...etc. A real problem issue for him. It wasn't until he posted pics when he sold the bike that the problem became obvious. And now he's gone, and can't be informed.

Have a look at his rear brake stay, and the non-90° angle with the axle:
From this thread: http://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-bobber-for-sale-nsw.31574/

View attachment 87562

Click to expand...

And the new owner hops on and has an crash............................................Just have to hope it doesn't involve your wife and kids..................

The lack of experience with mechanical know-how and welding has always been a bug bearer for me, especially the welding. Guys come on here and think they can learn to weld, (without any experience), and build a bike, then they get encouraged to go for it. Mechanical engineering is a trade so is welding, some have a natural aptitude for these things but even then they learn through experience, (lots of failures first), and usually have some mentor of some kind to help them.

Cannot learn to weld from a forum such as this.

Some of the rear shock angle on the brat builds are a concern as well

650Skull said:

Some of the rear shock angle on the brat builds are a concern as well

Click to expand...

+1,000

Try explaining that shocks quit working properly past certain angles and are put into a bind on compression instead to someone who is dead set on getting "that look" above all else. Lol

TwoManyXS1Bs said:

Good thread, DaddyG.

I'd like to add concern over proper geometries involving braking systems. If anyone remembers member Pristic, he was having all sorts of cataclysmic issues with his rear brake. Pulled/broken/twisted brake actuator rod, snapped brake cam, wheel getting shoved rearward, ...etc. A real problem issue for him. It wasn't until he posted pics when he sold the bike that the problem became obvious. And now he's gone, and can't be informed.

Have a look at his rear brake stay, and the non-90° angle with the axle:
From this thread: http://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-bobber-for-sale-nsw.31574/

View attachment 87562

Click to expand...

We you say "now hes gone" so you mean Pristic died?

What it means Yamaha77 is he hasn't posted since the add went up..........Presumably on to other things.

Now that is research by 2M. Something to take on board when finding a problem................just think of 2M and his post #4

I have owned and operated Motorcycle shops and Tattoo Shops and some people get it and some people think you owe them because they showed up for work. I am ANAL and maybe good thing or maybe not. I have had some young guys learn from me at my shops and went on to open there own and did well. Others were there for pay check only. I had a couple good partners that built like me and took pride in what they built and others just did the task.I think you have to have the BIKE GENE to really build well. Its funny that I say that because I got 5 kids and all went there own way work wise and doing good. But I was 11 yrs old and at a stock car race with my uncle and I was hooked on building. My uncle was a stock car driver in the 50's. When I was 14 yrs old I was hanging out with the 1% down the street helping work on there Triumph-BSA-Harleys and it came easy to me. That was it but I always worked a job too when I got older to feed my family until my shops made money and done. Now retired sold off all the equipment that could harm me HAHA I just build two bikes a year and buy up parts for long time customers I have here and overseas. Now skip a generation and I got two second cousins that grew up Car and bike CRAZY because all there fathers use to say is look at Rich's bikes. My one cousin just had his VW in a show a did well. So the family gene back to my UNCLE HARRY who started me out may still be alive.LOL

Everyone starts somewhere. This being a forum where it has some of the best how-to information is a double-edged sword. While it is great to have these resources to help us all with the subtle nuances of our beloved 650, the ease of accessibility has encouraged others that all they need to do is read through some forums and then they can build a bike.

I work with a lot of guys who think that the forums are a replacement for real learning and experience. Those guys are always making (what I think are) simple mistakes with things like brakes and suspension because they don't have the years of riding and wrenching experience to know better. I was fortunate enough to have a Father who imparted the old school teachings of how to use tools and instill a good work ethic.

I made a lot of mistakes along the way at first but when I wanted to hardtail a frame I had a welder come out and do it first and I was there to help him and prep stuff. I learned how to weld better and how to TIG after that but I would never have wanted to weld a frame without any experience. When I looked for parts and advice I talked to my dad's MC and they helped out. The forum was a great reference but it was no substitute for real world experience and face to face relationships and support.

Don't get me wrong I could never have excelled in my builds the way I have without the knowledge imparted to me on this forum. Thank you to everyone who has contributed and been kind enough to share their experiences at no cost to the rest of us.

Also, I am 30 years old and feel like I do not belong to my generation in a lot of ways. I use instagram sometimes and have a blog on the internet but make sure I don't let that stuff distract from living my life and being present in the moment. Most of my peers just want to look like bikers and ride from bar to bar, wear black denim with red wing boots, a patched vest, and some form of a vintage style Biltwell helmet. No one wants to take the time to learn and most of all no one wants to really ride. I thought that was the whole point after all ...

I shudder to think what this country will look like when this generation is running things. Can you just imagine? Luckily it's been my experience that most of the hipsters and millenials don't actually build bikes, they buy them already done because they have zero skills or desire to learn them. If someone wants to learn and try I'm all for it. We have so few people actually wanting to learn a trade anymore it's critical to keep our sport and interest alive. It's hard enough as it is to keep the legislative bodies and government control lovers out of our 2 wheeled business. Without new folks getting into our sport we will not have the influence or votes to stop the motorcycle haters from killing us off. So let's encourage and help but as mentioned, with the goal to keep everyone safe.

Sci85 said:

I shudder to think what this country will look like when this generation is running things. Can you just imagine? Luckily it's been my experience that most of the hipsters and millenials don't actually build bikes, they buy them already done because they have zero skills or desire to learn them. If someone wants to learn and try I'm all for it. We have so few people actually wanting to learn a trade anymore it's critical to keep our sport and interest alive. It's hard enough as it is to keep the legislative bodies and government control lovers out of our 2 wheeled business. Without new folks getting into our sport we will not have the influence or votes to stop the motorcycle haters from killing us off. So let's encourage and help but as mentioned, with the goal to keep everyone safe.

Click to expand...

I live in Williamsburg Brooklyn, the heart of hipsterville and cafe racers.
Its not that millenials and hipsters dont want to learn. Lots of them are super busy building their tech companies and creating fortunes.

Ideas of masculinity have changed. These days, its not so much whether you can wrench a bike, but how cool you look on it, how there is no grease and dirt under your nails, or cuts on your hand, and how you have so much money from the tech company youve built, that you just bought a bike to match your Ferrari.

Girls dont care whether you wrench a bike. They just want someone who is their own personal 401K. I say that to say, no one has the time, interest or attention span to get in a garage being grimy. Life is happening to quickly. So the mechanics in our city make all the money and are able to pay their rent.

Yamaha77 said:

I live in Williamsburg Brooklyn, the heart of hipsterville and cafe racers.
Its not that millenials and hipsters dont want to learn. Lots of them are super busy building their tech companies and creating fortunes.

Ideas of masculinity have changed. These days, its not so much whether you can wrench a bike, but how cool you look on it, how there is no grease and dirt under your nails, or cuts on your hand, and how you have so much money from the tech company youve built, that you just bought a bike to match your Ferrari.

Girls dont care whether you wrench a bike. They just want someone who is their own personal 401K. I say that to say, no one has the time, interest or attention span to get in a garage being grimy. Life is happening to quickly. So the mechanics in our city make all the money and are able to pay their rent.

Click to expand...

That is one of the vainest things I've ever read. The people that give a shit about how cool you look on your bike are probably sharing skinny jeans with their girlfriends. And if those same girls are just with you so you can be their "personal 401K", then just keep them in BK.
I wonder if the guys that do all the work on your bike know you think so little of them and their short attention span and grimy fingernails?

scott s said:

That is one of the vainest things I've ever read. The people that give a shit about how cool you look on your bike are probably sharing skinny jeans with their girlfriends. And if those same girls are just with you so you can be their "personal 401K", then just keep them in BK.
I wonder if the guys that do all the work on your bike know you think so little of them and their short attention span and grimy fingernails?

Click to expand...

You completely misunderstood what I wrote.

1. I have begun to find the time to work on my three bikes. I have the original manuals and pore over them. I grew up building old cars with my Dad. To be honest, I got tired of it after doing it all through childhood. So, i let my first bike be built by someone else.
2. Due, in part, to the advent and popularity of social medai, the majority of ppl in this world are becoming vain, selfish creatures, more interested in looks than substance. My point is, no one cares about the craft anymore. Ppl just want to look good AND have a running bike to look good on.
3. I in no way said I do not think highly of mechanics, and the mechanic (s) who have done work on my bike are amazing, honest, hard-working ppl: What I said was, or the point I am trying to make is, the only good to come out of the millionaire hipsters using them to build their bikes, is that mechanics can still make a living, which is a good thing in a city where rents are astronomical.