I rode with out an auto advance

Okey doke Cole - I think you've got it now.

What I have learned is that your bike starts and idles fine and you have driven it on the road without any serious issues. To me, that means that the key points are these:
  • YES - your bike - and in fact, all bikes, and all cars, airplanes, boats, snowmobiles, lawnmowers, tanks, or whatever - that are equipped with gasoline-fuelled piston engines - DO need a system advance the ignition timing as engine RPM increases;
  • YES - if your bike has a 1981 engine installed in it, then your bike likely has a TCI ignition (as near as I can tell from here ;))
  • YES - if that is true then the TCI system already has an ignition timing advance function built into it;
sooooo......
  • NO - you do not need a PAMCO, an auto-advance unit, a new set of handlebar streamers - or anything else to make your bike more powerful.
In conclusion, IF everything on your bike is working properly, and it sounds like it is, then you now have everything you need - and finally...
  • NO - you will not get any more power out of that engine unless you either repair something that is broken or not working quite right - or you modify something in the intake, the exhaust or the cylinders themselves (like say, the compression ratio.
There are people on this site who (really!!) have forgotten more about the XS650 than most of the engineers who designed it at Yamaha ever knew - and these guys will help you, but you really should think about your question, read the manual (they can be downloaded FOR FREE) - and then listen very carefully to the answers you get from the group.
I will close by saying welcome to the group - and enjoy that nice old bike you've chosen!

Pete

PS - DO NOT chop the damned bike up. Just enjoy as it is for now. Once you've learned a bit about it - then snoop around, ask some questions and THEN maybe think about modifying it.
 
MaxPete said:
YES - if that is true then the TCI system already has an ignition timing advance function built into it;
Click to expand...
Well kinda. There is another component that is critical. The TCI sends the fire signal but in and of itself does not determine when to fire it requires a signal from the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . The answer was already given in this thread.
 
MaxPete said:
Okey doke Cole - I think you've got it now.

What I have learned is that your bike starts and idles fine and you have driven it on the road without any serious issues. To me, that means that the key points are these:
  • YES - your bike - and in fact, all bikes, and all cars, airplanes, boats, snowmobiles, lawnmowers, tanks, or whatever - that are equipped with gasoline-fuelled piston engines - DO need a system advance the ignition timing as engine RPM increases;
  • YES - if your bike has a 1981 engine installed in it, then your bike likely has a TCI ignition (as near as I can tell from here ;))
  • YES - if that is true then the TCI system already has an ignition timing advance function built into it;
sooooo......
  • NO - you do not need a PAMCO, an auto-advance unit, a new set of handlebar streamers - or anything else to make your bike more powerful.
In conclusion, IF everything on your bike is working properly, and it sounds like it is, then you now have everything you need - and finally...
  • NO - you will not get any more power out of that engine unless you either repair something that is broken or not working quite right - or you modify something in the intake, the exhaust or the cylinders themselves (like say, the compression ratio.
There are people on this site who (really!!) have forgotten more about the XS650 than most of the engineers who designed it at Yamaha ever knew - and these guys will help you, but you really should think about your question, read the manual (they can be downloaded FOR FREE) - and then listen very carefully to the answers you get from the group.
I will close by saying welcome to the group - and enjoy that nice old bike you've chosen!

Pete

PS - DO NOT chop the damned bike up. Just enjoy as it is for now. Once you've learned a bit about it - then snoop around, ask some questions and THEN maybe think about modifying it.
Click to expand...
No I bought it chopped fixed up the engine and I just bought an original frame now I'm making a cafe
 
I know this site is the best in the world and has the best minds the XS650 can rely on to be kept on the road................Unfortunately none of us have telepathic minds, well i don't know about others, but...... mine is on the blink.

Seriously, in order for us to help you we need as much information you have, and what you are doing, (pics where possible speak a thousand words), to your bike. try to brake down different areas to keep answers as close to a specific as possible.

The more we understand you the easier it is for us to guide or help you.

A manual has been suggested.............you state you have done engine work...........Do you have a manual????..........there are changes to these bikes , (carbs, style, wheels, tins, electrics), every couple of years for some parts, these need to be identified for maintenance, tuning and different stuff, (stuff.... is a very technical term only to be used by experienced XS650 tuners with esp), ................Stating what year/model bike your working on is important for diagnostics.

Stated it's an 81, but buying a project it is best to get the parts you have identified, Forks, carbs and such.

give us the full picture
 
Cole, Welcome to the board. XS's are fun bikes, i'm glad youve gotten yourself a new toy. Is this your first bike? Do tell us what year and model you have, post some pictures, and use the search function, as many questions have been answered multiple times. Keep reading up and learning more, as 650Skull just said, some things changed big time from year to year.

I'll also warn you that a large percentage of people on this board feel that this bike was near perfect the day it left the factory and therefore changing it up any is just ruining it. I'm pretty sure that they only allow me to keep posting because I dont talk about my bobber much. :D :D

Be aware that the previous owner (PO) has likely done some shady/weird/ dumb stuff to your bike. I'm not talking trash about the guy, but the bikes 30+ years old and things like that happen. I would caution you to read the manual, then go out and poke, prod and look your bike over before you go for another ride. Unless you bought a unicorn, i'm betting there are loose nuts and improperly adjusted stuff all over.
 
Cole connell said:
Yeah sorry thanks so much
Click to expand...
Sparky said:
Cole, Welcome to the board. XS's are fun bikes, i'm glad youve gotten yourself a new toy. Is this your first bike? Do tell us what year and model you have, post some pictures, and use the search function, as many questions have been answered multiple times. Keep reading up and learning more, as 650Skull just said, some things changed big time from year to year.

I'll also warn you that a large percentage of people on this board feel that this bike was near perfect the day it left the factory and therefore changing it up any is just ruining it. I'm pretty sure that they only allow me to keep posting because I dont talk about my bobber much. :D :D

Be aware that the previous owner (PO) has likely done some shady/weird/ dumb stuff to your bike. I'm not talking trash about the guy, but the bikes 30+ years old and things like that happen. I would caution you to read the manual, then go out and poke, prod and look your bike over before you go for another ride. Unless you bought a unicorn, i'm betting there are loose nuts and improperly adjusted stuff all over.
Click to expand...
yeah my brother bought it from someone and he fixed it then I got it then I re cheacked every thing and noticed there was no auto advance knew there was a tci but didn't know it was an electronic advance but yeah it's been checked and fixed

Thanks for the help
 
To clear up a minor quibble, it is indeed possible to run the XS650 motor with the ignition timing locked at full advance; the motor will be a bitch to start, won't idle much under 1600 rpm or so, and won't tractor along at low rpm, but a lot of race motors were set up that way back in the day. Obviously fixed ignition timing isn't a real good idea for the street.
 
grizld1 said:
To clear up a minor quibble, it is indeed possible to run the XS650 motor with the ignition timing locked at full advance; the motor will be a bitch to start, won't idle much under 1600 rpm or so, and won't tractor along at low rpm, but a lot of race motors were set up that way back in the day. Obviously fixed ignition timing isn't a real good idea for the street.
Click to expand...

Agreed Grizld1 - the 650 will run with fully adcanced timing, as will most engines - but it will only run fast and it will likely be quite difficult to start. Similarly, it will run with NO advance - and it will start-up fine, but it won't rev-up or produce much useful power for actual riding on the road. Essentially, the flexibility of the engine is a result of having a variable ignition timing system.

Pete
 
Cole connell said:
It runs fine I saw that it didn't have an auto advance so I was reading up on what happens if you don't run one but I guess 80 to 83 have a tci, but does that mean I don't need an auto advance?
Click to expand...
Hi Cole,
79 & earlier XS650s have a mechanical auto-advance mechanism under one cam cover and ignition points under the other.
80 & later XS650s don't have these items, their cam covers are empty.
Instead, they have a magnetic pickup on the alternator that sends a signal to a TCI located under the battery carrier.
The TCI automatically advances the spark as the engine revs up.
 
It's a 40 year old bike with era appropriate power for a 650 twin when everything is working correctly. (about 50 HP) a modern 600 4 cylinder has near double that. A TCI that is functioning well generates a very accurate, strong spark a Pamco is necessary only if the TCI dies or you start to worry about 40 year old printed circuit boards that have led a hard life. If you are concerned about timing get a timing light and LOOK at the advance then you KNOW. The factory manual and I am sure about 50 threads in here cover the how to. Report back on what your current advance is in degrees? My advice if the timing is advancing properly keep the TCI. One more thing; DO NOT WELD on your bike unless the TCI is safely removed and sitting on your work bench. MANY have destroyed a perfectly good TCI with welding current/voltage wandering around the frame.
 
gggGary said:
DO NOT WELD on your bike unless the TCI is safely removed and sitting on your work bench. MANY have destroyed a perfectly good TCI with welding current/voltage wandering around the frame.
Click to expand...

Yep. I'll say it again. I had my tail welded on by a shop that was on Cafe RacervTv. Fried my TCI. I told them to completely remove it. Nope. Then they said it wasnt their fault and the TCI was bad anyway.
 
Does that include the pick-up on the alt. too or just the black box? In other words, can you fry the pick-up?
 
grizld1 said:
To clear up a minor quibble, it is indeed possible to run the XS650 motor with the ignition timing locked at full advance; the motor will be a bitch to start, won't idle much under 1600 rpm or so, and won't tractor along at low rpm, but a lot of race motors were set up that way back in the day. Obviously fixed ignition timing isn't a real good idea for the street.
Click to expand...

As someone who has been running an XS, daily, with the timing locked out, I respectfully disagree. The engine idles better and cooler at full advance than it does with retarded timing. Take-off is crisper and stronger as well. Going down the road it's no different than an ATU which pulls in full advance almost immediately off idle. If you are cruising at a low enough RPM that the ATU isn't maxed out then you are lugging it and the engine won't be happy regardless of where the timing is set.

Starting can be an issue, depending on what ignition system you are running. Points and Pamco will give you hell if you don't retard the timing or kill spark until after the motor is spinning. My bike with PMA-fed HEI starts easily because the engine has to be spinning to generate a spark. By the time it's spinning fast enough to make a spark, there is enough inertia to prevent kickback.
 
mrriggs.....................that's quite interesting. Are you saying you start and ride your bike everyday with the ignition at full advance,
i.e. 40 degrees advance? What rpm does it idle at? So your ignition is a magneto type?
 

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