Calibrated Fingers

I am not claiming to be able to hit a torque value by number.Only relatively close. I am simply discussing the importance of also being in tune with the components tightness as needed.. I am also enjoying the replies.
OK, but what do you think of the test article?
A Human is as Accurate as a Torque Wrench | Mythbusters
1206-sbkp-01-o%2Btorque-wrench%2B.jpg

The advent of the torque wrench nearly a century ago brought forth a newfound accuracy to the mechanical industry. Gone were the days of guesstimating only to sheer off a bolt head or under-tightening a nut to the point it came loose during a ride. But in reality do we really need to shell out big bucks for a torque wrench, or can we get close enough to the manual’s specs with our own muscle? Engine components and other tight-tolerance parts need to be torqued to spec since not doing so can result in catastrophic failure. But axle nuts and caliper bolts also require a certain pressure.
As a general rule of thumb older torque wrenches are considered accurate if they’re within four percent of spec (high or low) and newer ones narrow the scope to three percent. Rumor has it that some torque wrenches aren’t accurate from the factory while others grow more unreliable with use. A human arm and years of experience only get more accurate, but can that unscientific practice come within the accepted tolerances of torque wrench standards?

The Test: We hit the garage with several torque wrenches in hand and chose the one that was the most consistent after three attempts at tightening a nut or bolt from finger tight to torqued. We opted for the three most commonly over-torqued parts on a bike: rear axle nut, front axle pinch bolt and front brake caliper bolt. After sourcing recommended torque specs from several shop manuals we found an average and laid into the bike with a torque wrench before letting our seasoned shop mechanic loose for three tries using feel.

The Results:
Rear Axle Nut Front axle pinch bolt Front brake caliper bolt
(70 Ft-Lbs) (12 Ft-Lbs) (18 Ft-Lbs)
Mechanic Mechanic Mechanic
1) 65 1) 17 1) 22
2) 77 2) 15 2) 24
3) 92 3) 92 3) 14

Myth Busted:
Torque specs aren't vague and open for interpretation like the price of a used bike on Craigslist. They've been put in place to maintain your motorcycle's efficiency and safety, and to ignore them and just tighten at will is plain foolish. Our experienced mechanic wasn't consistent enough to eliminate the need for a torque wrench, and if you think your arm can get the torque load "close enough" you're making a big mistake. Not only can bolts snap if over-tightened but they can even pull the threads loose, and retapping something sensitive to contamination such as brake caliper isn't a pretty job. Under-tighten and well, the bolt falls out. Save the potential for disaster and invest in a torque wrench.
 
When Robert Pirsig produced his book, Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance in 1974, some were disappointed when they finished reading this long, metaphysical text, as they hoped that he was going to reveal some sort of brilliant wizardry or insight that would revolutionize the technology of bike mechanics, but instead he basically stated that it is best to fully appreciate the machine and read the service manual carefully.

th
 
Yamadude, I do like the article. Especially now that you did hugely increase the font size as I am out walking in town this eve without my glasses ! :thumbsup:
Didnt modify the text. Thats what happens when you copy/paste some articles.

So, you stated how you feel about the test, but what do you think about it ?
After all, we are in The Garage, not The Lounge.
 
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Pirsig: Many thought he was going to be revealed as a Guru, when he was actually just a technologist who wanted to point out that which was important.
 
I agree with the article overall. I do not always accept that a specified torque value for say a caliper mount or axle is that black & white. We long time motorcyclists are fortunate to have the years of experience and having mistakes made in our past to remember and reflect on. Mon thru Fri my precision job controls my every move with documentation, data, numbers and stats. On weekends motorcycling is the chosen escape by me. I actually do not let anybody else ever set a wrench on my bike. That scares me. I think most of XS650 members also choose to do their own wrenching. What I have seen in response to this thread is not a surprise at all. Great variety of mechanical practices. And clearly some of us are more particular than others. I stand confident in my own decisions on my own motorcycles ! Because of many years of practice . -RT
 
Anyone that thinks they can torque fasteners more accurately than a torque wrench, is just stroking their own ego. And its not just accuracy , its also consistency where torque wrenches win out.
I suppose, people that don't use torque wrenches, also do not use a tire pressure gauge. They feel they have this exceptional ability to just push on a tire with their thumb, and know if the pressure is correct.
I like my car tires, and my XS650 tires to be at 31 psig. Can I tell if they are at 27 or 35 psig.........................no I can't. That's why I use a tire pressure gauge.
 
I agree with the article overall. I do not always accept that a specified torque value for say a caliper mount or axle is that black & white. We long time motorcyclists are fortunate to have the years of experience and having mistakes made in our past to remember and reflect on. Mon thru Fri my precision job controls my every move with documentation, data, numbers and stats. On weekends motorcycling is the chosen escape by me. I actually do not let anybody else ever set a wrench on my bike. That scares me. I think most of XS650 members also choose to do their own wrenching. What I have seen in response to this thread is not a surprise at all. Great variety of mechanical practices. And clearly some of us are more particular than others. I stand confident in my own decisions on my own motorcycles ! Because of many years of practice . -RT
My intent was not to chase you around the block (you seem to be sincere in your presentation) , but rather, the issues at hand.
 
All good as long as the conversation is both informative and fun. I have a question for RG.. First for fun know that I am also extremely particular with tire pressure. Not only do I use a pressure gauge, I use only the same old gauge I've had for years for only motorcycles... Now here is a torque spec related question. You prefer to use your torque wrench to very accurately set your drain plug tightness at 40 lbs. Every time, year after year ... I want to know why you are so particular sbout that ? I would understand the need to very accurately set say camshaft caps or bearing journals the same every time. I personally am not concerned with the specific torque value on my drain plugs. I simply attempt to feel them squish and seat. We are different right there ! And I never stated that I am as accurate as a torque wrench but at times prefer to "feel" the tightness happen. At times to me the specified number is just a number to consider .. -R
 
We like to think that we can trust the neurological feedback our muscles are sending to our brain (aka "proprioception"), but this "feel" for the tension of objects has been revealed to be moderated (and modified) by affect (our attitudes, emotions, which are undeniable). Recent research in the field of Human Robotics (artificial limbs, and such) has exposed relevant evidence.

Here is an example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-08721-4
Emotions alter muscle proprioceptive coding of movements in humans

> text not modified :laugh2:
 
TimeMachine.........................When I bought my bike back in 2007, it came with copper washers on the drain plugs. There was always some oil leakage. I bought some new ones from Mikesxs, and they leaked as well. I experimented with different torque values, but the leakage persisted. I was mentioning this small oil leakage, and 5twins suggested to try using the phenolic gaskets that come in the Athena gasket sets. As soon as I tried them there was zero leakage, once I found the correct torque. That was 6 or 7 years ago, and they still work perfectly, with no leakage, re-using the same gaskets over and over.

Why do I use 40 ft-lbs. I'm a pragmatic person. I first tried 25 ft-lbs..................some small leakage; tried 30 some leakage; tried 35 some small leakage. Finally tried 40 ft-lbs, and zero leakage. I don't know what the manual says for the drain plugs. All I know is
40 ft-lbs makes a 100% seal. I use the same principle when I use a torque wrench for other places, where a steel bolt goes into aluminum. I only use 14 ft-lbs for my spark plugs, because I have found that works just fine. I use the lowest amount of torque
that works.

In my last job, in a Nuclear Power Plant for 15 years, I worked with a complex robotic system. The many mechanical motions used various torque values to perform their job. During the commissioning phase we had to program the software to set the correct torque. Many times the software value was set to low and the motion would not work. We would up the torque value in small increments until the device would do its job reliably. That is the safe way to commission new equipment.................work up from a low value until you find what works to get the job done. You would not want to use excessive torque, otherwise damage could be done.

You seem to have found a method that works for you, so keep doing it. You say you are not concerned with a specific torque value, and I agree that is just fine.
 
They've been put in place to maintain your motorcycle's efficiency and safety, and to ignore them and just tighten at will is plain foolish. Our experienced mechanic wasn't consistent enough to eliminate the need for a torque wrench, and if you think your arm can get the torque load "close enough" you're making a big mistake.
OBVIOUSLY Biased ! and very heavily so ... but I think their right. I KNOW my hands and arms are not consistent in torque...a day when I'm rested pumped iron a few times and loosened up is a day I am likely to sheer of a bolt ! but when I'm tired and depressed I'm likely to simply forget it ! LOL yet alone under tighten it... so I usually make it a practice to double check all the nuts and bolts that have been worked on a second time , the next day to just double check and make sure I didn't miss one. ( but I don't un tighten the already tight bolts.... so I am essentially not worried about torque at all it seams!...that's curious .... hehehehe!)
so Yes I need to get a few new torque wrenches a inch pound and foot pound and I'll probably try HF's Click stop torque wrenches....
I've had beam torque wrenches and always complain that I can't see the gauge.... when bearing down on them.
.......
it's interesting to Soul search your methods sometimes..... For me I have just been using my own feel on sideplates for over 3 decades
however, reusing old gaskets, and my tightening method of "stop just before you strip it" has also lead to the necessity of gasket cement. as
an assurance to stop oil leaks from the slightly warped side covers ..... I see a connection here ! LOL but my justification is "they don't leak !"
.... so I think it's time for me to get out of my rut and do it right !
....
Sense I don't work on other peoples bikes any more I feel there is no harm done , but this isn't true ... I hurt my own bike when torqueing things TOO MUCH...... and it's a hard habit to get out of ...that I already know !
....f.w.i.w.
.....
Bob........
 
Thank you RG for that explanation. I now further understand our described method differences on those drain plugs. I'll be more likely to look for leaks in the future now.. And others have that to consider as well. Also interesting is that as of this month I've been exposed and in training to clear alarms and such in a robotic (fanuc) cell which the automated DMG Mori lathes feed for inspection and washing. New to me, I could certainly use some of your robot knowledge there.. -RT
 
Heavy stuff, Dude.

Suppose you had your choice of 3 different shops to wrench on your bike.
1- A busy shop, sounds of tools clanking, compressors and power tools.
2- A rad shop with heavy metal, acid rock at full blast.
3- A shop staffed by fully cranked meth heads.

I take torque settings as part of an overall maintenance philosophy, subject to interpretation. The published values are for all things in new to good factory OEM serviceable condition. Adjustments based on education and experience if you're outside that realm. Especially in emergency situations.

Also, not all published torque values came out of the engineering department, and were written by a tech writer that may have hit the wrong key.

A comment on tire pressure gauges. I compared my air gauges a few years ago. The top gauges are all within 2psi, the middle three are about 5psi off, the bottom one failed. Which ones are correct? Are yours?
AirGauges.jpg
 
Hang in there RT ! You can do it !...... think Computer !!!!!! stay away from the bike till you get through it because it's no where as precise!
....well, working on them anyway... riding is good to clear the mind ! LOL
RG doesn't miss anything ! .....good man that canadian !

..... Bob.....
 
Cool Bob ! Riding does clear the mind ! At work now I have to use all the brain power I can muster up .. thank goodness for a beautiful Sunday ride today .. Later -RT
 
2M you have enough gauges to start a tire shop !!!!! which ones are correct depends on you ! I'ed say the top group !
because you got more of them ! LOL
I have 3 air gauges ...that work 2 that don't .... ( i checked tractor tires filled with water with them ! OOOPS ! LOL
..... if the tread sits flat on the car it's fine !!!!! the bike needs to be soft enough to flex when I bounce on it.....
and the wheelbarrow always goes flat anyway !
......
Bob......
 
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