Ignitions Which is more accurate?

List in the order you think is the most stable ignition timing.
Timed at the cam>
Stock point.
Pamco
Boyer
Cranked timed
PVL, Electrexworld, Powerdynamo

had a Pamco in my last TX650 it was great!
got good ol' points in this '79 Special and its ok for now...will move up to Pamco when funds are rife.
no experience with others...

a think a lot depends on where you are located as shipping costs and product support are important factors in the decision.

I have no experience of Pamco sytems other than to say in the 3 or 4 years I have been a member on xs650.com I have read of many setting up issues and failures associated with the Pamco ignition systems . Many dozens of posts of owners trying to contact someone for replacements or product support sometimes with little or no response .

I suspect that the majority of the problems stem from user incompetence and the fact that they are probably most commonly fitted to DIY wiring looms that have been lashed together out of bits of wire and electrical tape but some blame must lie with the installation instructions and reverse polarity circuit protection etc.

Conversley I have used a Boyer Bransden ignition system for 4 years without a single issue and I have yet to read of any xs650 user having a failure or problems with them . That said.... Boyer sales into the US are probably a fraction of that of the Pamco and Boyer installation instructions are abysmal

Here's my experience with Boyer. Used one for 14 years or so and did installations for others with no issues. The next one I installed on my own machinery worked fine for a couple of years, then the timing plate warped. The rotor made contact with solder pads on the underside of the timing plate, resulting in a WOT misfire starting at ~6K rpm. Didn't find the cause until I removed the timing plate for visual inspection after prolonged trouble shooting. I resolved that issue by buying a new timing plate, gutting a salvage timing plate, and bonding the latter to the former with epoxy for reinforcement. It worked. Then I switched to a Probe ignition (no longer available) and never looked back. Better cam driven designs (Probe, Pamco auto advance) put the ignition rotor outside the timing plate. Boyer hangs the timing plate out in the breeze with only the edge supported, and only part of the edge at that. Some users have reported issues with alignment of the Hall effect pickups, which amount to a pair of metal posts sticking inboard out of the timing plate. Jukka Tuokonen (sp?) did a fine series of posts on Boyer issues and how to correct them at XS650 Garage USA and (IIRC) at the old 650 Rider site.

Crank driven ignition is inherently more accurate, although I question how much that buys you in performance. It's certainly more stable, as the spark won't progressively retard as the cam chain wears; but the maintenance interval for that adjustment isn't nearly as frequent as it is for breaker point ignition. Bottom line, if you want a PMA plus ignition with a reg/rec that won't bake and then cook the ignition, the Powerdynamo looks really good.

On all the long trips Ive done it is Pamco all the way for me. I've never had a problem in the 7 or so years. Simple and reliable. I run a capacitor with PMA and I believe that has saved me the trouble that others have like burning up the unit because the key was left on. Also my wiring was solid since the day I installed it. Can't speak for the other options since I have never used them.

grizld1 said:

Here's my experience with Boyer. Used one for 14 years or so and did installations for others with no issues. The next one I installed on my own machinery worked fine for a couple of years, then the timing plate warped. The rotor made contact with solder pads on the underside of the timing plate, resulting in a WOT misfire starting at ~6K rpm. Didn't find the cause until I removed the timing plate for visual inspection after prolonged trouble shooting. I resolved that issue by buying a new timing plate, gutting a salvage timing plate, and bonding the latter to the former with epoxy for reinforcement. It worked. Then I switched to a Probe ignition (no longer available) and never looked back. Better cam driven designs (Probe, Pamco auto advance) put the ignition rotor outside the timing plate. Boyer hangs the timing plate out in the breeze with only the edge supported, and only part of the edge at that. Some users have reported issues with alignment of the Hall effect pickups, which amount to a pair of metal posts sticking inboard out of the timing plate. Jukka Tuokonen (sp?) did a fine series of posts on Boyer issues and how to correct them at XS650 Garage USA and (IIRC) at the old 650 Rider site.

Crank driven ignition is inherently more accurate, although I question how much that buys you in performance. It's certainly more stable, as the spark won't progressively retard as the cam chain wears; but the maintenance interval for that adjustment isn't nearly as frequent as it is for breaker point ignition. Bottom line, if you want a PMA plus ignition with a reg/rec that won't bake and then cook the ignition, the Powerdynamo looks really good.

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Interesting experience, I have to agree about the quality of the components and design. I think a lot of Companies that have been around for a few decades have failed to move with the times and are still producing components exactly the same as they did when initially designed. Frustrates the hell out of me when I see how stuck in the past some Companies are, like Boyer and others who have great products but don't market them or improve their designs.

I have used several ignition systems, personally i think electrexworld is probably one of the best systems I've used, I regularly go way over the red line and never had a problem with their ignition system, will be trying the digital system next year I've only been using the analogue system up until now but it has lasted well over 5 years and coped with two cranks that have spread so

I agree with the comments on Boyer. The electronics are excellent but the PCB on the timing pickup is a bit too thin. Also the two aluminum spacers for the PCB are a poor design as they do not sit flat - they tend to twist the PCB a little. I have made new ones with a step in them so they sit soundly. I must have another look at the PCB to see how I can reinforce it - perhaps with a metal ring running around the circumference. I think the Boyer has a 5 Year Guarantee!

Paul, for what it's worth, when I said the timing plate warped, I should have noted that it warped axially; it became concave, moving the solder pads in range of the spinning rotor.

jay760 said:

I have used several ignition systems, personally i think electrexworld is probably one of the best systems I've used, I regularly go way over the red line and never had a problem with their ignition system, will be trying the digital system next year I've only been using the analogue system up until now but it has lasted well over 5 years and coped with two cranks that have spread so

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The electrexworld stuff looks like a pretty nice option. Not strictly ignition related but a question, this kit...

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=xs650&PN=STK-467D_-_Stator_Kit.html#aSTK_2d467D

its only single phase 65 watts. Is that not quite a low output?

Yes it is a low output but the ignition is self generating so the charging system is only running lights and charging the battery.
Wherearewe consider looking at HPI ignitions before you purchase anything, their products are similar to Electrexworld and I have read (on another forum) that the HPI after sales service is better. I have no personal experience of either system but will shortly be purchasing a HPI system but not for an XS.

I use the ignition only kits, crank driven, I do have one with a charging system for lights but haven't used it yet so can't really comment on that, i do know that when the engine is running at normal running speeds the lights are bright but on tick over they are pretty dim.
The one thing I have noticed between the digital and analogue systems is with the analogue the bike was missing at around 4000 revs where as the digital doesn't seem to, though this is only starting up in the garage without testing it fully.

peanut said:

I have no experience of Pamco sytems other than to say in the 3 or 4 years I have been a member on xs650.com I have read of many setting up issues and failures associated with the Pamco ignition systems . Many dozens of posts of owners trying to contact someone for replacements or product support sometimes with little or no response .

I suspect that the majority of the problems stem from user incompetence and the fact that they are probably most commonly fitted to DIY wiring looms that have been lashed together out of bits of wire and electrical tape but some blame must lie with the installation instructions and reverse polarity circuit protection etc.

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I sold about 600 PAMCO's for the XS650 last year along with about 800 systems for Hondas, so that is a lot of PAMCO's out there. This has been going on for about 10 years, with some of the earlier years selling 800 to 1200 units just for the XS650. With so many people buying the PAMCO for their XS650, it stands to reason that there will be a lot of posts here, many relating to questions about installation.

As far as I know, I am the only supplier of ignitions for the XS650 that has a representative here as a member. If you want to get a better idea of the customer support of my competitors, perhaps you could ask them to send you copies of their customer Emails. I conduct a lot of my customer support right here in the open so you can see first hand what the issues may be, and that is what you are seeing with "many dozens of customers".

There are so many PAMCO users here that someone will usually step in and answer the questions that new users may have. Just try searching for "PAMCO" and see the posts for many if not most of the questions that may have come up over the past ten years. PAMCO ignitions are a defacto standard now.

For the past 4 or 5 years, PMA's have become very popular. I think PMA stands for "Pain in My Ass" as many of the posts that have the word PAMCO in them asking for help are in fact issues with a PMA on a bike that just happens to have a PAMCO ignition. I do not sell PMA's. There are so many variations of PMA's that I do not try to offer help but instead hope that another member with the same PMA can help. So, a lot of the posts that you are referring to have nothing to do with a PAMCO. PAMCO just happens to be in the title of the post. Now, a properly installed PMA works fine with a PAMCO. I have a Honda CB450 with a factory PMA and a PAMCO and there are no problems with that setup, except that I did install an after market Voltage regulator, because most of the PMA issues are due to a regulator that cannot handle the load, but the title of the post still says "PAMCO:".

Then we have the other trend of members wanting to install a very small battery, often to go with the faulty PMA installation. This setup will initially work, but in a short time, the tiny battery is fried due to overcharging resulting in an erratic Voltage that somehow people expect the PAMCO to survive.

I have not ever made any disparaging comments about any of my competitors. XS650 owners are fortunate to have a good selection of ignition systems available. I offer a variety of systems for the XS650, including the latest product which is a combined ignition / E-Advancer mounted on a plate that replaces the original points plate, so I think I am making an effort to keep up with available technology while still offering the original product at the original price.

grizld1 said:

Crank driven ignition is inherently more accurate, although I question how much that buys you in performance. It's certainly more stable, as the spark won't progressively retard as the cam chain wears; but the maintenance interval for that adjustment isn't nearly as frequent as it is for breaker point ignition.

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Is there anything to the argument that although cam based ignitions are not as stable as crank based ignitions, cam based ignition irregularities follow the timing of the valves, which also vary as the timing chain wears. In other words, is it important to have the ignition timing follow the valve timing rather than the piston position?

Pamcopete, those sales figures are very impressive and certainly speak for them self.

No, Pete, there is nothing to that assertion; retarding valve timiing should not be mirrored by retarding the spark. That's why you don't just leave breaker points at a retarded setting or tweak ignition timing specs to the retard side as the cam chain wears.

Having a large number in sales does not equal a good products Take a look at the auto company recalls. I put a post on face book for 1 day, 3 good 2 bad where one was a bad solder joint and the other was something about a magnet , he said you would fix it. Not very scientific but I decided I did not care anymore.
You want your ignition needs to fire when the piston is at the right degree BTDC. but Pete you know that ,good try.
Here is the most compelling reason to use and Powerdynamo , When Yamaha went to the electronic ignition did they use a system like yours at the cam, no they went with crank timing. Which is where the Powerdynamo is. The best part of the Powerdynamo even if your battery goes south, you can get home. And if you leave the ignition switch on, you don't fry your coils.
I will say you have a loyal (or paid following Skull) because any time I post a different alternative he jump in there and accuse me of only trying to sell my product or that I post to much. and finally have you Pete every typed in Pamco problem.. Like I told Skull try it you will not go back.

What a croc of shit Hooser.

I have nothing to do with Petes Ignition. I made a pamco thread with extracts from threads with information relating to the pamco and the thread had a PMA component. All of this was to help the members and the site. In fact i PM'd Pete to get his input so i could add any of those details that may have been missing and he didn't reply to my PM. I watched Pamco threads and added any new info as it was displayed, and linked all the threads i gleamed information from and to be fair and without bias, i also posted warnings, problems and solutions that had arisen and links to those threads as well. These problems were due to manufacturing and some part failures, like an unsoldered wire or broken component. These were quite rare, but when trouble shooting it would be prudent to check first and something to be considered.

There was so many threads with questions on installation and problems. Largest area of problems related to installations from the PMA crowd who were doing HHB PMA's and Pamco's at the same time. Not reading the instructions properly and repeated threads on the same question, from a time when this site was getting so many new threads by new members daily, it was almost impossible to keep up.

RG and i made some points about the lack of truth in advertising from PMA manufacturers or sellers to push PMA products. This you took exception to and in the course of the argument your manufacture, (after you contacted them about our concerns), changed the wording on their site in response to the outing of the publishing of false statements they were displaying.

This is all factual and can be verified by looking the threads still on here.

If some one asks about an ignition system and the Pamco hasn't been put forward i will post a link to the Pamco thread with all the information, good and bad, so an informed decision can be made. as for the latest thread you are referring about, it was in an established thread and after you had posted about you PMA and Peanut the Boyer. I posted a link to the updated Pamco with it's combined E-Advance and after i had done that you again posted a link to you and your PMA's........sound business for sure because it keeps it to the forefront of the conversation and drowns out alternatives.

For the record i have also posted you and your PMA as an alternative to HHB PMA due to the quality of a European product compared to the problems of the HHB PMA and the associated components.........

Again all of this information i have posted above can be verified..................not like your statements about me and my supposed payed involvement in the pushing and avocation Pamcopetes products, or the claim, (deleted posts by you http://www.xs650.com/threads/new-ignition-system.38366/ in this thread when 5twins disputed your negative response to the Pamcos), that the Pamco is a work in process and may become a good product when it is finally finished

And that is that. according to Shull..Once again a thread gets hacked. What was the original topic? Same with the guy asking about ignitions. If it is not pamco it is not worthy. There are some good replies on this one until what of who go off topic.. wasn't me.. it got off topic `12 post from the top. at 2:39 PM .
No go back to the one where the guy asked about ignitions, it is when you said I made to many post. you not me got off topic and we started down this dark road.

Below is where we got off on the 1st thread where the guy wanted to know what was out there for ignitons..YOU SAID I WAS DESPERATE> By telling someone about another ignition is not pushing my produce ether.If you go back and looks the one guy said he could not find part on the web site. so I posted is again, then made a mistake and reposted.
"I have no issue with your product or its reliability or even if you push the product.....But ......When you keep posting and re-posting after some one else posts an alternative you then seem to be seen as very desperate to make sure that it is your product that is kept in the forefront of the threads".

Then stop making unfounded and false statements regarding me