Upgrade to Hugh's PMA/Pamco or CDI?

Couperi

Couperi

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Hey all, I'm clearly new to the xs650 community, and to motorcycles in general. Feel free to be harsh if my questions are ridiculous, I like to think I have a thick skin.

I do a fair amount of long rides on my '82 xs650, and I've been considering upgrading the ignition system to give myself some peace of mind. Safe to say I don't want to get stranded out in the Mojave when the stock system decides to fry out. To that end, I have a couple of questions:

- Would I be better off upgrading to Hugh's PMA with a Pamco ignition, or try to score one of Hugh's CDI kits?

- Would I still need to upgrade to Pamco if I got the CDI?

- I've also heard good things about the Powerdynamo system, but I'm not entirely sure if I understand it, or if it's even available? Anyone patient enough to explain it to me?
 
Is your OEM system giving you grief? Or is this emotion before commotion?
I mean things do wear out, but unless you really go to obscure places it probably won't be the end.
For information on the PowerDynamo system contact http://www.hoosracing.com/home.html
 
weekendrider said:
Is your OEM system giving you grief? Or is this emotion before commotion?
I mean things do wear out, but unless you really go to obscure places it probably won't be the end.
For information on the PowerDynamo system contact http://www.hoosracing.com/home.html
Click to expand...

Haha, I suppose it's emotion before commotion. Right now I'm waiting for a pickup coil to come in, since the one of my bike failed, and it got me thinking about how iffy the rest of the system may be. The stator on my bike was sent to Gary at custom rewind a while back, so at least I know that's good to go.
 
I have this same ignition as you. I had one pickup fail which was an instant no go. I had one TCI fail, which was an intermittent no go. The way the TCI failed, and somebody else experienced the same thing, was it would just stop for no reason, but would start back up easily. The pickup fail (one coil open) was wouldn't start but would backfire while trying very impressively. Fortunately that was after sitting overnight. Also had two or three ignition coils fail, but they were all the same aftermarket kind, which we now know to be not acceptable.

That was in 50k miles of riding. It mostly happened 2000 miles from home, but it wasn't a problem because I carry a spare TCI, pickup, and ignition coil :) Soon as I put on the spare I ordered a replacement spare from ebay. I fixed the TCI after a couple of false "starts" by simply lightly resoldering every connection on it. The original solder fractures from vibration in the long term, which you can see with a strong magnifier. I still use that TCI and have only had the spare on to test it. I re-did all the connections on it too, to be sure. The ignition coil I use now is a Honda MP-08 which might be slightly colder than what I was using before, not sure, but seems to be very reliable.

So I think the ultimate in reliability is to have another part ready to put on. I would do that no matter what ignition I was using. Plus there are lots of stories on here of PMAs going south. Most here wouldn't consider it an upgrade.
 
xjwmx said:
I have this same ignition as you. I had one pickup fail which was an instant no go. I had one TCI fail, which was an intermittent no go. The way the TCI failed, and somebody else experienced the same thing, was it would just stop for no reason, but would start back up easily. The pickup fail (one coil open) was wouldn't start but would backfire while trying very impressively. Fortunately that was after sitting overnight. Also had two or three ignition coils fail, but they were all the same aftermarket kind, which we now know to be not acceptable.

That was in 50k miles of riding. It mostly happened 2000 miles from home, but it wasn't a problem because I carry a spare TCI, pickup, and ignition coil :) Soon as I put on the spare I ordered a replacement spare from ebay. I fixed the TCI after a couple of false "starts" by simply lightly resoldering every connection on it. The original solder fractures from vibration in the long term, which you can see with a strong magnifier. I still use that TCI and have only had the spare on to test it. I re-did all the connections on it too, to be sure. The ignition coil I use now is a Honda MP-08 which might be slightly colder than what I was using before, not sure, but seems to be very reliable.

So I think the ultimate in reliability is to have another part ready to put on. I would do that no matter what ignition I was using. Plus there are lots of stories on here of PMAs going south. Most here wouldn't consider it an upgrade.
Click to expand...

Duly noted, haha. I guess I'll just plan on having a handful of backups. Is there a way to stabilize the connections in spite of the vibrations? I suppose it would take a fair amount of time to degrade, even with the vibrations.
 
Couperi said:
Hey all, I'm clearly new to the xs650 community, and to motorcycles in general. Feel free to be harsh if my questions are ridiculous, I like to think I have a thick skin.
I do a fair amount of long rides on my '82 xs650, and I've been considering upgrading the ignition system to give myself some peace of mind. Safe to say I don't want to get stranded out in the Mojave when the stock system decides to fry out. To that end, I have a couple of questions:
- Would I be better off upgrading to Hugh's PMA with a Pamco ignition, or try to score one of Hugh's CDI kits?
- Would I still need to upgrade to Pamco if I got the CDI?
- I've also heard good things about the Powerdynamo system, but I'm not entirely sure if I understand it, or if it's even available? Anyone patient enough to explain it to me?
Click to expand...

Hi Couperi,
thing is, none of the systems you are thinking of switching to are improvements.
They are alternatives and they won't be installed by trained workers at the factory, neither.
I'd say stick with the factory system and like xjwmx sez; carry some spare parts.
The bike is more than 30 years old fer Chrissake, no way will it be reliable as when it was new.
 
Couperi said:
Is there a way to stabilize the connections in spite of the vibrations?
Click to expand...
If you mean the TCI solder joints, probably not every one has the problem. Just lightly and deftly resoldering every connection would hold it for another 30 years. Soldering is a skill, especially now when they're trying to slip in lead-free solder. Also, on the board there are four big diodes in a group. I had one exactly them break in two inside one of the relays, so I replaced all four in both TCIs with 1N004 or 1N007, from Radio Shack. They're just power diodes and the 1N type are all equivalent to them.
 
I told you some. The TCI is an amazingly robust little critter with some care and feeding. It has protection built in so you won't fry anything if you leave the key on, for example, unlike a brand new ignition I could name. I recommended an ignition coil that Honda put on Goldwings. Plus does the Mohave have cell reception? If so, I'd rather break down there than downtown Los Angeles.
 
Couperi said:
I definitely agree with that, but surely there must be some modification's/upgrades one could perform to make it more reliable in general.
Click to expand...
Regarding "remove and replace"-type equipment upgrades to improve reliability of the XS650 electrical system, one of the most common is to replace the original fuseholder, which you might already have done. The spring clips in the originals harden and eventually crack, effectively opening the circuits in which they're wired. You will find a lot of info on this forum by searching this topic. Switching to modern fuses and holders is what many do; I used the so-called "Radio Shack" method, replacing the original clips with new ones removed from a very similar fusebox that Radio Shack sold and continuing to use the OEM fusebox and "old-school" glass cartridge fuses. Perhaps not a true upgrade, but it'll last as long as my motorcycle riding days do. Another change that I consider an upgrade is to install a gel battery in lieu of a lead-acid one, eliminating the need to check and adjust water levels in the cells periodically. Still another is to replace incandescent bulbs in taillights and turn signals with LEDs; again, a lot of info on this site - the idea here is to reduce the power draw on an "old" electrical system that was somewhat marginal in capacity when new.

I have the original TCI ignition system and intend to keep it. While not an "R&R"- type change, adding a small, thin magnet over the OEM one in the TCI rotor probably qualifies as an "upgrade" - the purpose here is to offset any weakening of the field of the OEM magnet that may occur over time, thus ensuring continuing strong signals from the pickup to the TCI box. Another "addition"-type upgrade is to install a voltmeter, many options to do this. Both of these ideas are well described on this site.

While not reliability-driven per se, removing the turn signal cancelling unit and throwing it into the closest trash container is a useful safety upgrade.

The other significant upgrade I made to my electrical system was safety-driven - replacing the single-filament sockets in the turn signal housings with dual-filament ones in order to add running lights at both ends.

Apart from switching to a gel battery, none of these ideas reduce the need for ongoing maintenance attention such as ensuring clean & tight connections at all grounds and plug connectors, clean switches, "in-spec" brushes and clean interfaces between them and the rotor rings, integrity of all wiring insulation, etc.










somewhat marginal in capacity when new.
 
aldo5468 said:
Regarding "remove and replace"-type equipment upgrades to improve reliability of the XS650 electrical system, one of the most common is to replace the original fuseholder, which you might already have done. The spring clips in the originals harden and eventually crack, effectively opening the circuits in which they're wired. You will find a lot of info on this forum by searching this topic. Switching to modern fuses and holders is what many do; I used the so-called "Radio Shack" method, replacing the original clips with new ones removed from a very similar fusebox that Radio Shack sold and continuing to use the OEM fusebox and "old-school" glass cartridge fuses. Perhaps not a true upgrade, but it'll last as long as my motorcycle riding days do. Another change that I consider an upgrade is to install a gel battery in lieu of a lead-acid one, eliminating the need to check and adjust water levels in the cells periodically. Still another is to replace incandescent bulbs in taillights and turn signals with LEDs; again, a lot of info on this site - the idea here is to reduce the power draw on an "old" electrical system that was somewhat marginal in capacity when new.

I have the original TCI ignition system and intend to keep it. While not an "R&R"- type change, adding a small, thin magnet over the OEM one in the TCI rotor probably qualifies as an "upgrade" - the purpose here is to offset any weakening of the field of the OEM magnet that may occur over time, thus ensuring continuing strong signals from the pickup to the TCI box. Another "addition"-type upgrade is to install a voltmeter, many options to do this. Both of these ideas are well described on this site.

While not reliability-driven per se, removing the turn signal cancelling unit and throwing it into the closest trash container is a useful safety upgrade.

The other significant upgrade I made to my electrical system was safety-driven - replacing the single-filament sockets in the turn signal housings with dual-filament ones in order to add running lights at both ends.

Apart from switching to a gel battery, none of these ideas reduce the need for ongoing maintenance attention such as ensuring clean & tight connections at all grounds and plug connectors, clean switches, "in-spec" brushes and clean interfaces between them and the rotor rings, integrity of all wiring insulation, etc.










somewhat marginal in capacity when new.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your thorough response, I'll definitely add everything you mentioned to the work list. Still pissed off that radioshack shuttered. There was one a block away from me that I went to constantly. Now if I want components I need to either head out 20 miles from home, or order them online. So it goes.
 
aldo5468 said:
replacing the single-filament sockets in the turn signal housings with dual-filament ones in order to add running lights at both ends.
Click to expand...

Aldo, did you use the original turn signal fixtures? If so how did you get 2 wires through the threaded stalk? Barely enough room for the single wire on mine.
 
weekendrider said:
Aldo, did you use the original turn signal fixtures? If so how did you get 2 wires through the threaded stalk? Barely enough room for the single wire on mine.
Click to expand...

Hi wer,
been there, done that.
My XS11 has two-filament signal bulbs and it uses the same signal lights as every other Yamaha.
The trouble ain't that two wires won't fit through that skinny stalk, because they will.
It's that they'll only go through if you clip the ends off so you have to solder new ends on afterwards.
 
I beg to differ Fred. Your XS11 may look like the others but I'll bet the ID of the threaded stalk is larger or they used smaller wire.
I'll wait to see how Aldo got around that.
 
weekendrider said:
Aldo, did you use the original turn signal fixtures? If so how did you get 2 wires through the threaded stalk? Barely enough room for the single wire on mine.
Click to expand...
If I remember, the first time I did it the fronts, I drilled out the threaded stems on the stock housings to just barely pass two wires, then soldered on the male connectors needed to plug them into a "pigtail" in the blue power line to the speedo/tach meter lights - not ideal, but workable; still used the stock ring terminal over the threaded stem as the ground connection. Later on, I decided to bob the stock turn signal housings at the step, which required drilling and tapping for new threaded stems, which was opportunity to choose one with a larger ID. I wound up using lamp fittings commonly available at hardware stores and lighting supply houses, which are available in many different lengths and have ID large enough to pass 3 wires, with the corresponding lock washers and nuts. Had to buy a tap and drill for the lamp fitting thread - can't remember at this moment what the thread spec is but probably can dig it up. Added a pigtail in the ground wiring in the headlamp to accept the ground wires from the twin-filament sockets, rather than keeping the OEM ring terminal-on-housing stem arrangement. The lamp fitting OD is slightly larger than the stock threaded stems, so you have to drill out the holes in the collars and washers used to mount the front housings to the headlight bucket and the rear ones to the frame attachment points.
 
You could just use thinner wire. The stock wire is thick enough to power a house. Most aftermarket sockets probably use more appropriately-sized wire.
 
It sounds like we both arrived at the solution on the same paths (wiring being the exception). I too have drilled some and replaced others for the short stalk look.
I've come to the conclusion the stalk is soooo thick because it is the last line of defense if the bike does a side flop.
 
Further to #17 above, lamp fitting thread is 1/8-27 NPS (straight pipe). Tap drills can be letter R (0.3390"), letter S (0.3480") or an 11/32", which splits the difference between R and S sizes. S is tap drill size for 1/4-20 thread, so may be more common than R. 10mm washers fit very nicely; 3/8" is too small. I wound up relocating the front turn signal housings to the lower clamps - the attached pic shows the lamp fitting stem and hardware.
 

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