Checking in from Northern Virginia

Boog

Boog

Traveling Stroyteller
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Good evening folks,
I have been riding bikes for 38 years now and thought it is high time I restored one of them.
I just took possession of a 1981 XS650SH that has been abandoned since 2001. As soon as the State says it is mine (may be a month or two), I plan to restore it. However, it appears the engine is seized, the kick starter will not move one iota! I've been told by two buddies that I am wasting my time if the engine is bad. Here are some pictures I took last night.
XS650SH_c.jpg
XS650SH_b.jpg
XS650SH_a.jpg
res I took of it last night when I got it home.
 
Welcome to the site, Boog, that is one crusty bike!
I envy your optimism.
You may have trouble convincing anyone on this site that it is worth doing any work to, particularly with title issues and a stuck motor.
The drum mag rear is not seen too often in US, I understand.
But always nice to see another enthusiast.
 
If the engine is seized then I would start by getting some acetone and ATF. Mix these 50/50. The brand or what the ATF is for don't matter. From here on out I will refer to this mixture as penetrating fluid. Tests show this to be the best available.
Put some of the penetrating fluid into a pump style oil can.
Pull the plugs, squirt a few pumps or 5 or 6 into each cylinder. Let soak over night. Repeat every morning. After a few days try turning the engine over.
You can try the kick start or by rocking the bike in gear.
Eventually it will loosen up enough to turn over.
At this point you can try a compression test and if it tests over 100 PSI, It may run. Or you can pull the engine for a rebuild.
I have an 81 that looks just bit better than that one. The carbs are giving me troubles.
A few years back it ran great and was fun to ride. It sat fore a couple years, health issues, feeling better now and trying to get it running again.
If so, it will get to go live at someone else's house.
Good luck with yours.
Leo
 
XSLeo said:
If the engine is seized then I would start by getting some acetone and ATF. Mix these 50/50. The brand or what the ATF is for don't matter. From here on out I will refer to this mixture as penetrating fluid. Tests show this to be the best available.
Put some of the penetrating fluid into a pump style oil can.
Pull the plugs, squirt a few pumps or 5 or 6 into each cylinder. Let soak over night. Repeat every morning. After a few days try turning the engine over.
You can try the kick start or by rocking the bike in gear.
Eventually it will loosen up enough to turn over.
At this point you can try a compression test and if it tests over 100 PSI, It may run. Or you can pull the engine for a rebuild.
I have an 81 that looks just bit better than that one. The carbs are giving me troubles.
A few years back it ran great and was fun to ride. It sat fore a couple years, health issues, feeling better now and trying to get it running again.
If so, it will get to go live at someone else's house.
Good luck with yours.
Leo
Click to expand...

Thank you Leo, that is the first time I heard anyone give a positive idea for an engine in this shape. I have another ouch of hope now.
 
You've nowhere to go but up! I'm with Leo. First free it up if you can, then see what you've got under all those cosmetic issues. For many of us the build is where much of the fun is hiding. It's only a waste of time if you're not enjoying yourself. Hopefully you've got something else to ride while that one is reincarnating. Good luck, keep us posted.

roy
 
@Royboy Thanks for that vote of confidence. I do have a 2014 Triumph Rocket III as my daily ride. It has 56K miles to date. This XS650 will be my 29th ride.

I also have an EX500 back in Denver doing time with one of my sons till he can save up for his next bike. He T-boned an F-150 that pulled out in front of him one year ago yesterday and totaled his R1.

I look at this indeed as a labor of love and joy (and scuffed knuckles mixed with sailor words) as I have never done such a project before. All I have to work on is the brick patio in the picture and few tools. However, good planning and resource research should go a long way and making this bike street worthy once more.
 
Boog said:
All I have to work on is the brick patio in the picture and few tools.
Click to expand...

More years ago than I care to remember, a magazine called "Bike" had an article in it about "The Cosmic Interchange". It works like this. You tell everyone who will listen about your bike. You tell them you are restoring it, doing it on your patio. Pretty soon someone will offer parts or help. When I had nowhere to store my bike I rang couple of numbers on cards in shop windows for people looking for garage space. "I'm looking for a garage but I don't need it all. If you're the same and get one and want to split the rent, give me a call."

The phone rang the next morning. He's a pretty good mate now, too. :)

These guys are great; they don't fall out and there's literally nothing they don't know.

Good luck.
 
So far continuing with the 50/50 acetone/ATF with no luck. I am not in a rush as the Virginia paperwork take weeks anyhow. At least the plugs were easy to remove...
 
Well if it makes you feel better that bike looks better than the one I used as my 1981"ride to work bike" for years. only thing mine had over yours is the engine was not stuck!

If you were closer to Central NY I could make your title problem easy as I have frame and title for my 1981! Just swap over your pars to this frame and you are good to go. Well once you get a running engine.

Have you tried putting it in 5th gear a pushing it with clutch held in then let it out like you were trying to push start it? Try that in both directions but be careful as going backwards can be a bit harder to control while rolling and the sudden stop if it doesn't turn over can be exciting!
 
kshansen said:
Well if it makes you feel better that bike looks better than the one I used as my 1981"ride to work bike" for years. only thing mine had over yours is the engine was not stuck!

If you were closer to Central NY I could make your title problem easy as I have frame and title for my 1981! Just swap over your pars to this frame and you are good to go. Well once you get a running engine.

Have you tried putting it in 5th gear a pushing it with clutch held in then let it out like you were trying to push start it? Try that in both directions but be careful as going backwards can be a bit harder to control while rolling and the sudden stop if it doesn't turn over can be exciting!
Click to expand...

Kshahsen, I have tried doing that in first gear to no avail. However, I have only started the freeing up process and am not worried yet.
Thanks for the offer on the title and frame; I will keep that in mind as a back-up plan in case something goes bad with the Virginia method.
 
As you get more and more into the 650s, you'll find that parts are plentiful, can usually be had cheap (used), and sometimes whole engines pop up for a song. Many of your little parts are so rusty you'll be looking to replace them. Start watching eBay and you'll run across lots of that stuff cheap. There will be expensive listings too, just don't buy those, lol. If you're unsure about any parts, ask here. There are many reproduction parts out there now but the quality is hit or miss. Sometimes you're better off with nice used original parts.
 
Boog said:
Kshahsen, I have tried doing that in first gear to no avail. However, I have only started the freeing up process and am not worried yet.
Thanks for the offer on the title and frame; I will keep that in mind as a back-up plan in case something goes bad with the Virginia method.
Click to expand...

Just remember that using a higher gear will be trying to turn the engine slower so for the same amount of "push" on the bike it will put more torque into turning the engine over. Think of it as the difference in just letting off the throttle in 5th gear and down shifting to 1st at the same speed. I know it can seem counter intuitive but the gear ration works just opposite when pushing the bike as it does when motor is trying to move the bike!

As to the frame the one I have is a bit rustier than your bike so keep that in mind!
 
Sometimes it takes popping the motor open and pounding or pushing on the pistons. It has to come apart anyway because even if it does free up, there's big rings of rust in the bores that need cleaning out. And it will probably need a re-bore to do that.
 
Well if you really have a need to get that engine to turn there is one sure way.

Step one: Back off valve adjustments as far as possible.

Step two: Dig out an old spark plug and bust out all the ceramic bits. Then braze or weld in a fitting that has 1/8 female pipe threads.

Step three: Figure out by sticking a wire down in in the cylinders which piston is close to but not at top center position.

Step four: Fill that cylinder with motor oil and screw in special spark plug adapter.

Step five: Take a good lever operated grease gun and remove the tube of grease and fill the gun with motor oil.

Step six: Connect hose from grease gun to spark plug adapter and pump while holding grease gun end opposite the outlet end up.

Step seven: Now that engine has turned part way over remove adapter and try turning over with kicker. Just be aware all that oil will come out rather quick and make a big mess! You could also get someone to push the bike then let out the clutch in 5th gear only problem is mess will be spread over a larger area!
 
One update on the oil pressure braking the frozen engine free.

If my calculations are right and I did cheat and use Google to find and use the formulas. Piston size is 75 mm which gives approx. 1.475 radius and run through the A = π r2 formula that gives a surface area of 6.83 sq. in. and a good grease gun can produce up to 10,000 psi so at the limit of the grease gun you would have 68,300 pounds of pressure pushing down on top of the piston.

So if 34 tons won't move the piston I think the engine is beyond hope! But yes you have to remember that the same force would be pushing UP on the cylinder head not sure the studs could take that!

But if the engine is that stuck I think you have other things to worry about!

I have another idea but not sure if it would get one in trouble with Home Land Security so maybe I better keep that one to my self!
 
I realize that time is on your side because you await the title papers and do not wish to invest money in something that may not be yours for the riding. I suggest you be patient and let the penetrating fluid work. May take a week or two. Your engine looks pretty well sealed up but may be worth taking the alternator cover off to check that the rotor isn't seized up with rust, this would make kicking over very difficult.

My first XS was rebuilt outdoors like you will be doing. Just make sure that you can keep things sealed up against the rain. I made the mistake of putting a nice shiny set of oil covered gears in a cardboard box thinking the oil would protect them. When I checked a week or so later the rust was just getting started. I should have sealed them in plastic bags. Also, get some foam pads to lay on the ground, they will make it much more comfortable for working on the bike, most of which will require you to kneel. A small stool would also be good for giving your knees a rest sometimes.

I currently have an 81 SH with the rear drum brake. It was jammed on hard due to the brake shoes having delaminated from age.

Good Luck and Enjoy.
 
Paul did have a very good idea of checking to see if the reason it is not turning over is external like the rotor to stator clearance is not blocked with rust.

Easy to do and only takes a few minutes.
 
Boog; If I may, a short story.
A "cleaning the garage" XS had been bandied about a local riding group with no takers. I lowballed and got the nod, showed up and the kickstarter was "locked", tried a second gear rolling clutch dump, nada, price dropped some more. I loaded it in the van. At home on the lift I pulled the LH cover put a wrench on the crank, hey what the???? the motor freely turned backward then stopped. back and forth about 90 degrees. wasn't slamming it just turning it back and forth a few times thinking about it when; What the heck! it turned freely all the way around! Compression check 150 / 120, oiled it up did the minimal wake up with lots of kicking over plugs out, then hit the starter. vroom, vroom. I think a valve was stuck open, luckily the push start attempts didn't bend it, bumping it must have freed it. After it ran compression 150/150, sold as a runner... I've had plenty of "stuck pistons" finds, and one that spun just a little but was grenaded, but doesn't hurt to see if it will turn backward...........
DSCN9552.JPG quickly became a runner.

piston.jpg
This one; Not so much LOL
 
kshansen said:
Well if you really have a need to get that engine to turn there is one sure way.

Step one: Back off valve adjustments as far as possible.

Step two: Dig out an old spark plug and bust out all the ceramic bits. Then braze or weld in a fitting that has 1/8 female pipe threads.

Step three: Figure out by sticking a wire down in in the cylinders which piston is close to but not at top center position.

Step four: Fill that cylinder with motor oil and screw in special spark plug adapter.

Step five: Take a good lever operated grease gun and remove the tube of grease and fill the gun with motor oil.

Step six: Connect hose from grease gun to spark plug adapter and pump while holding grease gun end opposite the outlet end up.

Step seven: Now that engine has turned part way over remove adapter and try turning over with kicker. Just be aware all that oil will come out rather quick and make a big mess! You could also get someone to push the bike then let out the clutch in 5th gear only problem is mess will be spread over a larger area!
Click to expand...

You've made me smile with this one, true science at work brother. I still have patience for now and will maintain my daily 50/50 dosing. :)
 

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