And crank vents are in
dropped the 200s to 190s, raised the needles one slot, time to test ride.
dropped the 200s to 190s, raised the needles one slot, time to test ride.
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gggGary's latest XS project "madness"
- Thread starter gggGary
- Start date
with the wideband O2 calibrated. I've dropped mains from 200 to 190 then 180, will go to 170 but think 180 is prolly the set. raised needles from 2nd to 3rd but may go back after I for sure have the mains. then gotta open and see what pilots are in there. Work, work, work...
details of the last Fram on madness that I opened.
Very interesting. I assume those are VM34's? I ended up with a 175 Main, middle clip position and 20 Pilot (one turn out)...curious to see how close you end up to my set up. I'm not convinced I'm perfectly dialed in...but it feels pretty close to me.
Gotta look at all the brass, guys! Richer slides will force leaner PJs, richer NJs will force leaner mains, the foot bone connected to the leg bone, it all has to work together. (Yah, told ya those mains were too fat.)
Wow! This is complicated, I think I’ll go polish something.
I'm with you Bob. When I'm feeling stressed I go polish something, even if it's a nut or bolt laying around. What can I say,
some people drink to excess, I polish and mow the grass.
Here's what's in these griz;
"gggGary's Pristine, never had gas in them yet."
only thing swapped has been mains,
Carb: VM34
MJ: 180
PJ: 25
NJ: 159-P6
JN: 6F9, 3rd slot
Slide: 2.5
Air jet: ?
Float valve 3.3
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
I liken grizld1 to Smokey Yunick
Went down to a 32 tooth rear sprocket, seems good, over 5,000 miles on the 33 tooth aluminum I removed and it shows no wear compared to new teeth.
Dropped the needles back to the 4th slot, left the mains at 180. A guy keeps pretty busy running it up and down the gears on back roads while watching the wideband display. I'm pretty close to "leave it like this".
An accelerator pump would be nice.
Dropped the needles back to the 4th slot, left the mains at 180. A guy keeps pretty busy running it up and down the gears on back roads while watching the wideband display. I'm pretty close to "leave it like this".
An accelerator pump would be nice.
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Gary , I really am curious about your testing. I’m interested in your views.
1. Did the use of your O2 sensors provide you with information that resulted in any noticeable performance gain?
2. Did the O2 sensors allow you to expedite the tuning process?
3. I know Madness is a pretty hot rodded 650 already, do you think there is still room for performance gains and still have street riding usable powerband?
The Spanish Inquisition wants to know!
Thanks
1. Did the use of your O2 sensors provide you with information that resulted in any noticeable performance gain?
2. Did the O2 sensors allow you to expedite the tuning process?
3. I know Madness is a pretty hot rodded 650 already, do you think there is still room for performance gains and still have street riding usable powerband?
The Spanish Inquisition wants to know!
Thanks
Mailman Q: Gary , I really am curious about your testing. I’m interested in your views.
A: You're crazy Bob
1. Did the use of your O2 sensors provide you with information that resulted in any noticeable performance gain?
As part of an organized tuning effort and after some time spent learning what they do (and don't) provide they are helpful. In several ways I'm not there yet on the process. like 2M sez there's a lot to learn
2. Did the O2 sensors allow you to expedite the tuning process?
A: Yes
3. I know Madness is a pretty hot rodded 650 already, do you think there is still room for performance gains and still have street riding usable powerband?
I'm guessing madness is pretty close to the ideal between power and streetable. (see below for caveats)
The Spanish Inquisition wants to know!
Tuning an XS650 on the street is tough.
Tuning is hard on an engine, full power runs to redline tend to use up an old school mill like this. This bike has seen some hard use.
I have several dings against me.
Unknown history. Uncertain what-all parts are in the motor.
One cylinder is weaker by about 10-15 lbs R180 L165
This tach has always been suspect, pretty sure I've gone past redline (too many) times.
It's a pain to swap a stock tach in, I did do that once, several budget electronic tachs, experiments have also been questionable.
I'm not very organized or consistent, always wandering off on another tangent. Changing a couple things at once. (changed sprocket and needle setting in one shop session yesterday.
Speed limits and police make doing this dicey, I had one conversation with deputy Dan already this year. (on the EBR, near comical in how THAT went) Just been lucky a couple times since.......
Really; an accelerator pump.
That was also kind of a hint to someone I know that's holding VM34s are cheap "performance" carbs, not the crème de la crème. An accelerator pump set up is probably the best way to get a balance between decent fuel economy and that satisfying rush of power when you grab some throttle. (short of a closed loop ECM, fuel injection and mapped advance curve, anyone considered that rabbit hole, Jim???)
My last couple tanks have been showing 50MPG, I run premium. and with the 18" front wheel I'm prolly 5% off on the odometer.
This was possible even with those way rich mains and testing, cuz 90% of riding is on the needles not the mains. That run to Ozarks and back last year with 65-70 MPH highway speeds and 200 mains saw me down in the 30's MPG, one fast freeway tank, may have had me down in the 20's!
Should really swap the borla's back on for a test run, I suspect these mufflers are a bit top end limiting. There goes another shop day....
This O2 set up is bulky, takes away from the bike, got a couple things I could do to improve that yet but it won't stay on the bike for long periods.
Tuning is a time sucker, even with the O2, a day slips by pretty quick. There's always other projects need doing.
How spot on does it need to be? how much tuning time is worth doing? nebulus concepts.
Was out back to back yesterday on the XS and the EBR, I'm getting old, that EBR is a handful, things happen REALLY quick. Overall the XS is like a comfortable pair of running shoes. And more fun on "rough, tight" Wisconsin back roads.
A: You're crazy Bob
1. Did the use of your O2 sensors provide you with information that resulted in any noticeable performance gain?
As part of an organized tuning effort and after some time spent learning what they do (and don't) provide they are helpful. In several ways I'm not there yet on the process. like 2M sez there's a lot to learn
2. Did the O2 sensors allow you to expedite the tuning process?
A: Yes
3. I know Madness is a pretty hot rodded 650 already, do you think there is still room for performance gains and still have street riding usable powerband?
I'm guessing madness is pretty close to the ideal between power and streetable. (see below for caveats)
The Spanish Inquisition wants to know!
Tuning an XS650 on the street is tough.
Tuning is hard on an engine, full power runs to redline tend to use up an old school mill like this. This bike has seen some hard use.
I have several dings against me.
Unknown history. Uncertain what-all parts are in the motor.
One cylinder is weaker by about 10-15 lbs R180 L165
This tach has always been suspect, pretty sure I've gone past redline (too many) times.
It's a pain to swap a stock tach in, I did do that once, several budget electronic tachs, experiments have also been questionable.I'm not very organized or consistent, always wandering off on another tangent. Changing a couple things at once. (changed sprocket and needle setting in one shop session yesterday.
Speed limits and police make doing this dicey, I had one conversation with deputy Dan already this year.
(on the EBR, near comical in how THAT went) Just been lucky a couple times since.......Really; an accelerator pump.
That was also kind of a hint to someone I know that's holding VM34s are cheap "performance" carbs, not the crème de la crème. An accelerator pump set up is probably the best way to get a balance between decent fuel economy and that satisfying rush of power when you grab some throttle. (short of a closed loop ECM, fuel injection and mapped advance curve, anyone considered that rabbit hole, Jim???)My last couple tanks have been showing 50MPG, I run premium. and with the 18" front wheel I'm prolly 5% off on the odometer.
This was possible even with those way rich mains and testing, cuz 90% of riding is on the needles not the mains. That run to Ozarks and back last year with 65-70 MPH highway speeds and 200 mains saw me down in the 30's MPG, one fast freeway tank, may have had me down in the 20's!
Should really swap the borla's back on for a test run, I suspect these mufflers are a bit top end limiting. There goes another shop day....
This O2 set up is bulky, takes away from the bike, got a couple things I could do to improve that yet but it won't stay on the bike for long periods.
Tuning is a time sucker, even with the O2, a day slips by pretty quick. There's always other projects need doing.
How spot on does it need to be? how much tuning time is worth doing? nebulus concepts.
Was out back to back yesterday on the XS and the EBR, I'm getting old, that EBR is a handful, things happen REALLY quick. Overall the XS is like a comfortable pair of running shoes. And more fun on "rough, tight" Wisconsin back roads.
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Well.....yeah, guilty.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You have an inquisitive mind, not too many folks would attempt what you’re doing.
Carry on, I’ll let you get back to your lumberjack duties!
“Ok...start er up!”
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Just a quick trim
A bit more on the O2
Messing with balance side to side, trickier than it might seem. again things happen fast, watching a gauge while running through the gears on the street is asking for trouble. (yeah get a dyno... LOL) Then there's data logging, add an accelerometer? more rat holes.
Then there's the whole; what number on the O2 is a good number? On an XS with VM34's? hard accel through various RPMs, tuning areas of the carbs, steady state at cruise? idle? not much prior art out there.
I'm currently showing mid to upper 9's at WOT up from low 9's on the 200's
cruise is upper 11's to mid 12's decel and idle 13's to 14's
Those numbers move fast and constantly, getting left and right with in a whole number of each other is trickier than it might seem. see above about cylinder health....
Messing with balance side to side, trickier than it might seem. again things happen fast, watching a gauge while running through the gears on the street is asking for trouble. (yeah get a dyno... LOL) Then there's data logging, add an accelerometer? more rat holes.
Then there's the whole; what number on the O2 is a good number? On an XS with VM34's? hard accel through various RPMs, tuning areas of the carbs, steady state at cruise? idle? not much prior art out there.
I'm currently showing mid to upper 9's at WOT up from low 9's on the 200's
cruise is upper 11's to mid 12's decel and idle 13's to 14's
Those numbers move fast and constantly, getting left and right with in a whole number of each other is trickier than it might seem. see above about cylinder health....
Maybe this will help.
Gauge housing is made out of cat food cans, REALLY getting into 2M territory.
(it's like I know what mailman is going to say next...)
Gauge housing is made out of cat food cans, REALLY getting into 2M territory.
(it's like I know what mailman is going to say next...)
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You know you’re straying into 2M territory here!
Danger! Danger! Danger!You know you’re straying into 2M territory here!
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
It looks good from down here in Illinois
Damn that's a pretty dash, Gary! Hang those Borlas back on man, they're not that loud! Re. pumpers, make me an offer--those TM36/68s need a good home. Also have a slightly used Veypor (not Vapor) data logger from Nonlinear Engineering with a built-in accelerometer. Shoot me a PM or an e-mail if you're interested. The stuff is just sitting in a cabinet in my barn doing nobody any good, and I'd sell you the whole package cheap.
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