Happy to finally be part of the gang!

Hazmat6666

Hazmat6666

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Hey all,

I am excited to finally be a part of the community after years of coveting the XS650. I finally found a 1972 XS2/650 at a good price, though it has its gremlins. I am hoping I could get some assistance/recommendations to get things in order, would love to have it ready for late summer/early fall here in Dallas.

I know for sure there has been a decent amount of work out of the gate, it is a proper bobber to start. It has a Pamco in place of the old points, and a PMA. If I had to hazard a guess it is likely rephased based on the v-twin ‘lobeing’ sound (maybe just my imagination with straight pipes) but I have not checked, though that will come up when I deal with the timing and valve setting shortly. Does anyone have a quick or easy (if not quick) way to verify if it has been rephased?


Issues/gremlins:

  • Starting, or rather the starter. The electric starter would attempt to engage, sometimes it would even succeed, but in general would grind a bit, maybe turn a little but pop out, after 8-10 tries I would kick it over by foot. I have read all the forums on the ‘wishbone’ clip and the tension, so I laid the bike over (so I didn’t have to drain the oil) pulled the cover and the clutch out to get at the #4 gear/bendex and clip. I put the ‘loop’ into my bench vice while on the gear to give additional tension…and ‘POP!’, the clip literally broke in half in the little loop (see picture). Shit. So, I hop on eBay and find a new clip from a guy local to me and had it delivered today. I put the clip on the starter kickout gear and the tension seemed to be about the same as the old clip (before I broke it of course), so I am a bit gun shy to put the new one in the vice, lest I break this one too. I got the bike back together and now the starter doesn’t even attempt to engage, just spins. I am fairly certain that I have it together properly (bendex gear, spring, starter gear with clip facing in with black seal out, #4 gear, washer, split clips, retainer washer, c-clip to hold it together.) I took it apart again to be sure I didn’t monkey it up, all seems to check out. Is it still the clip being too lose? Would a new clip be loose to start? I also checked the gear teeth and while a couple are a little dinged, they are in decent shape and certainly would engage.
  • Restarting, so when I get the bike started (mainly with the kicker now) I can run it, but god forbid I let it stall, or turn it off, restarting it won’t happen for several hours. But it wasn’t like that to start. When I bought the bike I rode it home (25-30 miles or so), since it had been about 15-18 years since I had ridden I may have killed it once or fifteen times ;) (to be fair the idle is the next issue). On the ride home I was fairly able to quickly restart, either by the shaky starter gear or kicking it over. The last leg of the ride (had to stop for a beverage as it was about 101 outside) the idle went to shit, thinking it may have been the ‘choke’ I reached down to flip it up and the whole carb was ‘floppy’, pulled into a gas stop and the left carb had actually popped off the intake. Found a guy with a Philips and was able to seat it back on and tighten it up. I see there is a small rubber tube that connects the two carbs between them (hard to see), not sure what that is for but it too was disconnected. I was able to get that connected again by rotating the right carb counter clockwise and the left carb clockwise to give enough gap between the ‘nipples’ to get the short rubber hose (maybe ¾”) to slip over the nipples, though from the look of it the carbs are now slightly out of level (by a couple degrees). Since this point the bike has not been able to restart after it has warmed up.
  • Idle, it doesn’t want to keep lit, I will run with the ‘choke’ open, though I don’t suppose it is a real choke so much as an ‘enrichener’ switch on the carb that links the two. Even with the choke on/down I have to keep up on the throttle to keep it lit. The only point I have been able to run with the choke off/up was the first ride home after about 45 min of running with the choke on, then the carb popped off so the idle has been less the issue as getting it started and restarting it.

  • As mentioned above in the idle issue, I have to basically keep the choke on all the time, or it will die.

  • I get a lot of hesitation and backfiring while riding it, figure this is timing and fuel related.
So, if you made it through this entire post, I owe you a cold one, more so if you can help with one or more of the issues above. Also, if reading this post you can give a recommendation to the order to work on the gremlins (i.e. fix the starter issue, set valves, then deal with timing, etc.) that would be helpful so I can put a punch list together to get things done in a proper order that way I am not trying to fix an issue that would be exacerbated by one of the other issues (like you need to set the valves and timing chain tension before you can set ignition timing, etc.)

All the best,
John :cheers:
 

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Sounds like the carbs need a good cleaning and sync. That will probably solve half the problems with idle and starting. Are they stock cv carbs or flat slides?

Quick check for rephase is pull the spark plugs and bring one side to the top, you can see the piston through the plug hole. If the other piston is up the same it isn't rephased. Maybe someone can tell based on the pamco, I'm not familiar enough with them.

As for the starter, this is the parts to fix it https://www.mikesxs.net/yamaha-xs65...oem-447-15516-00-90468-29062-90501-15409.html
The gear is probably worn from not engaging all the way. Rather than get in there and band aid it, just replace the bits.
 
As you may have discovered in your starter research, the wishbone clip was replaced with a heavier version around '75. Yours may have still been the early thinner and weaker one. Here's the definitive thread on fixing the starter. Personally, I take the clip off the gear then squeeze it. I don't squeeze it on the gear .....

http://www.xs650.com/threads/starter-gear-fix.18060/

Yes, often even a brand new clip is weak or spread open too much and needs to be tightened up. Do the fishing scale testing to verify you've re-tensioned the spring enough.
 
First of all - welcome to XS650 ownership John from Canada’s sunny southern coast in Windsor Ontario!

As has been said above re: hard starting, carbs, and the #4 starter gear wishbone / hair clip thingy: the only way forward is to just dig in and fix them. Clean those carbs and get a new hair clip and gear, test it and install it. That will also give you the opportunity to have a look at the clutch pack. Be sure to keep track of all the little washers, spacers and the neat little thrust bearing. If the assembly doesn’t go back together exactly right - the clutch will NOT work afterward. You may need a new gasket for the RH engine case cover and don't forget that the bottom six case mounting screws require a little copper crush washer to seal in the oil.

Also - be sure to use an impact driver on the clutch screws. Otherwise, they’re tough to loosen.

Frankly, with the engine running so poorly, I doubt that the exhaust note means much and so my advice on detecting a rephrase is also the same: pull the plugs, move it up to TDC on one side and then look into the other plug hole. If you can see both pistons simultaneously, she’s a stocker and not rephrased.

The other thing I’d point out is the importance of having a solid charging system.

While there wasn’t anything wrong with the stock separately excited alternator and electromechanical regulator system, they do get crusty after all the years - especially the rectifier assembly that lives on the underside of the battery box (YIKES!). Similarly, the more modern PMA system should be at least as good or better with no brushes to maintain - BUT - they have a troublesome history likely due to poor quality control.

Take your pick, but test your system and make sure that it’s working well. For the record, most folks have found that the stock alternator combined with a modern regulator and rectifier unit works well. These bikes can be tough to start if the battery is weak or not fully charged.

Cheers and again, welcome.

Pete
 
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MaxPete said:
First of all - welcome to XS650 ownership John from Canada’s sunny southern coast in Windsor Ontario!

As has been said above re: hard starting, carbs, and the #4 starter gear wishbone / hair clip thingy: the only way forward is to just dig in and fix them. Clean those carbs and get a new hair clip and gear, test it and install it. That will also give you the opportunity to have a look at the clutch pack. Be sure to keep track of all the little washers, spacers and the neat little thrust bearing. If the assembly doesn’t go back together exactly right - the clutch will NOT work afterward. You may need a new gasket for the RH engine case cover and don't forget that the bottom six case mounting screws require a little copper crush washer to seal in the oil.

Also - be sure to use an impact driver on the clutch screws. Otherwise, they’re tough to loosen.

Frankly, with the engine running so poorly, I doubt that the exhaust note means much and so my advice on detecting a rephrase is also the same: pull the plugs, move it up to TDC on one side and then look into the other plug hole. If you can see both pistons simultaneously, she’s a stocker and not rephrased.

The other thing I’d point out is the importance of having a solid charging system.

While there wasn’t anything wrong with the stock separately excited alternator and electromechanical regulator system, they do get crusty after all the years - especially the rectifier assembly that lives on the underside of the battery box (YIKES!). Similarly, the more modern PMA system should be at least as good or better with no brushes to maintain - BUT - they have a troublesome history likely due to poor quality control.

Take your pick, but test your system and make sure that it’s working well. For the record, most folks have found that the stock alternator combined with a modern regulator and rectifier unit works well. These bikes can be tough to start if the battery is weak or not fully charged.

Cheers and again, welcome.

Pete
Click to expand...
Hey Pete,

Thanks on the reply, I have followed your responses for a while and appreciate the help you have given me and others. I am going to tear the right side off again (very familiar with the clutch assembly removal and installation now lol). Before I spring (no pun intended) for a new gear and hair clip I am going to try the squeeze method to get the tension needed on the new one. One question on this to make sure I am actually doing it right (and hopefully not breaking another clip) I have drawn a quick diagram for the orientation in relation to the vice jaws, I want to make sure I am understanding the proper technique, can you verify I am actually doing it the right way?
 

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Yup - that looks good to me John - and be sure to remove the clip from the gear.

….and thanks for the kind words!

Pete
 
Ratranger said:
Sounds like the carbs need a good cleaning and sync. That will probably solve half the problems with idle and starting. Are they stock cv carbs or flat slides?

Quick check for rephase is pull the spark plugs and bring one side to the top, you can see the piston through the plug hole. If the other piston is up the same it isn't rephased. Maybe someone can tell based on the pamco, I'm not familiar enough with them.

As for the starter, this is the parts to fix it https://www.mikesxs.net/yamaha-xs65...oem-447-15516-00-90468-29062-90501-15409.html
The gear is probably worn from not engaging all the way. Rather than get in there and band aid it, just replace the bits.
Click to expand...

So I got in there and bent the new clip, and it kicked out a bit but the gear wouldn't kick out far enough to engage (not even to grind a little), grumble. So the new repair kit from Mike's XS, is it actually new, reengineered to solve the problem? Or is it basically the stock replacement that I will need to try the clip pinching to get the tension?

Ratranger said:
Sounds like the carbs need a good cleaning and sync. That will probably solve half the problems with idle and starting. Are they stock cv carbs or flat slides?

Quick check for rephase is pull the spark plugs and bring one side to the top, you can see the piston through the plug hole. If the other piston is up the same it isn't rephased. Maybe someone can tell based on the pamco, I'm not familiar enough with them.

As for the starter, this is the parts to fix it https://www.mikesxs.net/yamaha-xs65...oem-447-15516-00-90468-29062-90501-15409.html
The gear is probably worn from not engaging all the way. Rather than get in there and band aid it, just replace the bits.
Click to expand...
 
PMA and Pamco..........Pamco is for a 360 firing..........a 270 re-phase would have 2 sets of hall sensors on the ignition board.....

On the carbs check for any air leaks........crossover tubes/manifolds for cracks or not sealing...........carb slide diaphragms could have pin holes.........need to hold them up to the light to see if they do
 
Hazmat6666 said:
So I got in there and bent the new clip, and it kicked out a bit but the gear wouldn't kick out far enough to engage (not even to grind a little), grumble. So the new repair kit from Mike's XS, is it actually new, reengineered to solve the problem? Or is it basically the stock replacement that I will need to try the clip pinching to get the tension?
Click to expand...

The Mikes replacement gear is just fine as-is but the hairclip they supply seems usually to be too loose.

Given how easy the test is (less than a minute) and how many components must removed to change the #4 gear & clip assembly (jengine case cover, the entire clutch ass’y etc.etc.), I would NEVER install a new one without testing it.

Basically, with the clip in place, you want it to be tight on the gear to the degree that you can barely move it around in its slot in the gear with just your hand. I mean it should be danged tight. To do the test properly, do the following:
  1. gently mount the #4 starter gear in a vise,
  2. then connect a fishing scale to the hairclip,
  3. and then pull on the other end of the scale.
If the scale goes up to say....7 lbs (about 3..2 kg.) before the hair clip moves, you’re good to go for installation.

If the clip moves at less that 7 lbs - you need to remove the clip from the gear #4 and squeeze the clip as noted earlier. Then re-mount it and test again. Basically, the gear will not engage reliably if the clip is too loose.

If you search on the forum, there are lots of photos of this simple test.

Pete
 
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Seems there was a thread back a bit that had an old clip, new oem and mikes along with gears and after all was tested and tried, the Mikes/Xs 650 direct stuff was just as good. Oh and welcome to the site! JC
 
Superjet said:
Seems there was a thread back a bit that had an old clip, new oem and mikes along with gears and after all was tested and tried, the Mikes/Xs 650 direct stuff was just as good. Oh and welcome to the site! JC
Click to expand...

It is - as long as the hair clip is tight enough.
 
Superjet said:
Seems there was a thread back a bit that had an old clip, new oem and mikes along with gears and after all was tested and tried, the Mikes/Xs 650 direct stuff was just as good. Oh and welcome to the site! JC
Click to expand...
Got the Mike's one ordered, and an amazon fish scale too! Would like to put this issue to bed so I can get to the other gremlins lol
 
Hazmat6666 said:
Got the Mike's one ordered, and an amazon fish scale too! Would like to put this issue to bed so I can get to the other gremlins lol
Click to expand...
So got the MikesXS starter repair kit yesterday, will get it in there in just a little bit, that said it looks promising so far. I used my new $6 Amazon fish scale to test the tension and I got a whopping 15 pounds! Mind you this is right out of the package, without any oil reducing friction but after a good cleaning my other clip was nowhere near the amount of tension (could barely move it by hand); will update once I get it in this evening.

So I checked for carb leaks and yep, there were some... I pulled one out and noted the butterfly also had gaps around it but the screws are frozen so I am not going to be able to adjust that without drilling them out, etc. Thinking I am better off getting new carbs, holders, gaskets, etc. at this point to just get rid of carb issues to see if there are any other gremlins that will keep me from riding once we cool down another 10-15 degrees here in Dallas.

So with that I have a question for y'all, I am looking at 2 different sets one from MikesXS (XS Performance Carbs) the other from TC Bros (XS650 Mikuni VM Roundslide 34mm Performance Carb Kit Tuned By TC Bros.). There is a bit of a price difference, and (TC is more $) and it doesn't include the new carb holders so that will bump the differential another $70. Would love to hear opinions on this if you have one, particularly if you have maybe used both. Very interested in how they are out of the box, need little/lots of tuning, ease of upkeep, repair, customer service with the respective companies, etc. Lastly on this topic, is there another set I should be looking at that I am not considering?
 
Hazmat6666 said:
So got the MikesXS starter repair kit yesterday, will get it in there in just a little bit, that said it looks promising so far. I used my new $6 Amazon fish scale to test the tension and I got a whopping 15 pounds! Mind you this is right out of the package, without any oil reducing friction but after a good cleaning my other clip was nowhere near the amount of tension (could barely move it by hand); will update once I get it in this evening.
Click to expand...

Yup - that sounds pretty good as far as the starter is concerned.

Pete
 
You will see gaps around the carb butterfly if it's open at all. Back the idle speed adjustment screw all the way out so it's not even touching the cable arm anymore. That will allow the butterfly plate to close all the way. If one side does but the other doesn't, your carbs are out of sync.

Those MikesXS carbs have a terrible reputation due to very poor Chinese build quality. They could end up being worse than what you've got, lol.
 
5twins said:
You will see gaps around the carb butterfly if it's open at all. Back the idle speed adjustment screw all the way out so it's not even touching the cable arm anymore. That will allow the butterfly plate to close all the way. If one side does but the other doesn't, your carbs are out of sync.

Those MikesXS carbs have a terrible reputation due to very poor Chinese build quality. They could end up being worse than what you've got, lol.
Click to expand...
Thanks 5twins I appreciate the note about the Mikes carbs, admittedly the look like they are a knockoff Mikuni, just wasn't sure if folks have had good things to say one way or the other...one check mark for go the other direction! If I spend a little more to save on issues that would be great lol.

Also an update, got the starting gear in there and it engages quite nicely. ESO it will not engage and just 'spin/lightly grind' though I have a feeling that is not an atypical thing depending on where the pistons are. Suffice it to say, the bike fired the second I hit the starter. Now the next issue to fix is that once the bike warms up, it will not start at all. It doesn't even attempt to fire, it will lobe over once or twice, then kick the starter out. I have tried kicking it over until my foot fell off with no luck either. The only way to get it going once it is off warm is to wait hours until it is completely cool, any thoughts on that? I plan to adjust the valves tomorrow or this weekend in hopes maybe that has something to do with it. The strange thing is that when I bought it I was able to fire it over time and time again no issues. The last mile or so home the carb popped out of the intake/holder (got it back in) and ever since that point I have not been able to fire it once warm.:cussing:
 
MaxPete said:
Yup - that sounds pretty good as far as the starter is concerned.

Pete
Click to expand...
Fired over immediately via the starter. Of course now I have to figure out WTF is going on with starting it, or rather not being able to start it once it gets warm. Even a 3 minute ride around the neighborhood and nope, will not start again for hours.
 
You could have a bad coil. Many times when coils go bad, they only act up once they get hot, work fine when they're cold. You could run it until it's hot and won't start again, and then check to see if it's still got spark.
 

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