Miss November XS2 tribute

Back yard this morning - note lack of rain.




Been making short jaunts trying work out what needs fixed first. We must have covered, oh, 7 or 8 miles by now?

The carburation might be off. But then again, it might be the spark timing.

On my first jaunt this morning, the bike ran well at very low revs & small throttle opening but would not take anything more, holding back, popping and banging. Yesterday, I felt sure the spark was retarded so today I loosened the magnets/rotor and advanced them 'by eye'.

Well, it feels better. But still needs to be checked and set by strobe. The bike continues to hold back as the throttle is opened. But if you persist - we're only talking a bit of throttle and maybe 3,000 revs - it catches and goes quite well. But, there's the clutch.

The newly greased and adjusted clutch is better but still feels very 'mushy' on take up. There's no 'biting point' - more of a wide region as the bike progressively gets under way and eventually the clutch is fully out. And the clutch slips under power. Tried adjusting - less gap at the handlebar end - but as the engine catches, the clutch abruptly slips and revs spike.

Only noticed one leak - oil on the fins just below the l/h spark plug. Must be coming from the points cover, though there's not a lot of oil inside the cover.

So still lots of fixing needed. But the good news is that on each of the four short trips we've made, the bike has felt better.

Sounds great Raymond - well done indeed!

As your experience with the bike - and that trust that goes with it - grows, I am sure that you will enjoy much longer forays into the countyside.

On some of your remaining snags, I do have some thoughts:

• given that the points cover is not oily inside, the small leak on the fins under the spark plug may just be oil blowing back from the LH exhaust valve tappet cover - check that the o-ring there is good and that all four acorn nuts are snug;
• on the clutch - be sure that the adjustment is correct (and this is, in my view, best done cold):
  • wind the adjuster nut on the handlebar perch right-in (ie. MORE slack);
  • then go down to the adjuster on the LH engine case cover and loosen the locknut;
  • tighten the adjuster screw in until it seats - but do not loosen it the 1/8 turn that is suggested in the manual;
  • THEN go back up to the handlebar and adjust the cable slack adjuster to provide about 3 mm (1/8") of freeplay there.

If that doesn't work - then you may simply have a worn out clutch, but as you know, replacing the springs and clutch pack it is not a difficult task at all
BTW - if you simply lean the bike way over on the left, you can remove the RH engine case cover without draining the oil. To do this, I simply place an axle stand with a cloth on it, under the lower exhaust mount stud on the LH cylinder head - that way the bike is very steady as you work on the RH side of the engine where the clutch is located).

• NOTE: it would be wise to have the fuel level quite low when doing this and don't forget the six little copper crush washers on the lower six socket head capscrews (Allen bolts) that secure the engine case cover.

As has almost certainly been point out, for some odd reason, these bikes always seem to "wake up" slowly. Thus, they often start out running rough but after 30-100 miles, things improve markedly (including carburetion and clutch operation). If you aren't quite sure what adjustments to make, my advice is to ride it a little bit more and see what happens. I would certainly check the timing with a strobe

Anyhow, I suspect that I'd be a bit cranky after having slept for many years too.

Pete

MaxPete said:

As your experience with the bike - and that trust that goes with it - grows, I am sure that you will enjoy much longer forays into the countryside.

As has almost certainly been pointed out, for some odd reason, these bikes always seem to "wake up" slowly. Thus, they often start out running rough but after 30-100 miles, things improve markedly (including carburetion and clutch operation). If you aren't quite sure what adjustments to make, my advice is to ride it a little bit more and see what happens. I would certainly check the timing with a strobe

Anyhow, I suspect that I'd be a bit cranky after having slept for many years too.

Click to expand...

Thank you Pete.

Your predictions are spot on. Today has been short run, tinker/adjust, short run, repeat. The bike is getting better. My confidence and trust in her is growing. The short runs are getting slightly longer.





This morning, I ventured up the middle of the village with trepidation, knowing I could push home if necessary. Funnily enough, when I stopped then turned round at the bus stop, all these kids on stunt bikes appeared from nowhere. ' AW! COOL BIKE! COOL YAMAHA! REV IT MISTER, REV IT!'

But this afternoon, made our first journey with a purpose. The painter works at an industrial unit a couple of miles away - decided to be brave and show him the finished bike. And of course all the guys came out for a look. Told him she's a rolling advert for his business - everybody asks about the paint.





Then, went to the filling station. Didn't completely fill the tank, in case it needs to come off again . . .

Then, went on a circular run through the next village and back along a main road. And I think the carburation maybe is getting better, like you said. Easier or at least more predictable to drive through the 3,000 rpm hesitation. Clutch still slips as demand rises, but took advantage of a strong tailwind along the main road (more speed for less power) and we were barrelling along at 60 mph for a few miles.

It actually felt that I was riding a motorbike, not just trying to get one to run.

Good to know that the clutch can be done without draining the oil, but intending an early oil change anyway. So, will see how it goes and if the clutch continues to play up, that will be the time to drop the oil and have a look.

And yes, still need to check timing with a strobe.

As mentioned, clutch adjustment on these is very touchy. You need and want a small amount of freeplay down at the worm screw adjuster, but just a very small amount. Make that too tight and the clutch could slip on you. There's also a chance, seeing what you found done up top (incorrect cam chain length), that the clutch was assembled incorrectly. The pressure plate is made to go on only one way. There's a small hole in the plate and a corresponding dot stamped on the hub that must show through it .....





If you don't line these up, the clutch won't function properly.

Glad things are improving - that is very typical of these bikes as they are ridden following a rebuild or a resurrection. As you say, it is nearing time for a full oil change anyway. I always change oil at or near the 100 mile mark after a rebuild - I figure any swarf or debris left in the engine by the process will be out by that time and we might as well switch to fully clean oil early in the new life of the engine.

Also on the clutch, there is some great info and photographs from 5Twins - as always.

I'm not an expert on the clutch and I have only done one (on my '81) but I DO know that there a lot of little spacers/washers/etc. and everything must be just right or it won't function properly. I would get an exploded view and study it carefully as you disassemble and then re-assemble the clutch. You may find, as pointed out by 5T, that it wasn't correct in the first place.

However, once you get it dialed in, they work quite nicely and while the lever pull is not light, it isn't too bad for the most part.

Once you've done all of the adjustment tricks, you may need to replace the clutch pack as slipping is not good.

Cheers,

Pete

Thank you 5twins. The clutch is being a nuisance. I've adjusted it a few times - screw the adjuster in till I feel it firmly against the ball bearing, then back out about about 1/8 turn, then tighten the locknut. I do this with the handlebar adjuster screwed fully in. But when I've done the crankcase adjustment, there is always excess (XS?) slack to take up at the handlebar, maybe 2-3 turns out to reduce free play to a few MM at the lever.

I don't understand this. With bikes I've done in the past (and memory can play tricks) once you've adjusted at the push rod and back out a touch, you find that's enough to set the handlebar about right and adjustment needed at that end is minimal.

What do you think about my impression that clutch take-up is mushy - no clear biting point, just a gradual pulling away over the entire lever movement? Is this how they feel, or does it suggest something not good in the clutch itself? I fully understand that it's difficult to diagnose from a description - you need hands on really. Fancy popping over? LOL.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go with Pete's advice and see if it beds in over a few miles. Today, over about 5 or 6 outings, we covered about 18 miles and the bike is getting better. Or I'm getting used to its ways. Maybe see if I can live with the mushy clutch for a little while and see if the abrupt slip under power cures itself. But as said above, if I have to pull the r/h cover off, that will be the time to do an early post-rebuild oil change. And probably torque the head bolts. And anything else that's needed.

But overall, it has been a good day. Just starting to experience the XS as a motorbike instead of a set of tasks and problems in the garage.

MaxPete said:

Glad things are improving - that is very typical of these bikes as they are ridden following a rebuild or a resurrection. As you say, it is nearing time for a full oil change anyway. I always change oil at or near the 100 mile mark after a rebuild - I figure any swarf or debris left in the engine by the process will be out by that time and we might as well switch to fully clean oil early in the new life of the engine.

Also on the clutch, there is some great info and photographs from 5Twins - as always.

I'm not an expert on the clutch and I have only done one (on my '81) but I DO know that there a lot of little spacers/washers/etc. and everything must be just right or it won't function properly. I would get an exploded view and study it carefully as you disassemble and then re-assemble the clutch. You may find, as pointed out by 5T, that it wasn't correct in the first place.

However, once you get it dialed in, they work quite nicely and while the lever pull is not light, it isn't too bad for the most part.

Once you've done all of the adjustment tricks, you may need to replace the clutch pack as slipping is not good.

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Pete, we crossed in the post. Good advice as always.

As said to 5t, overall it has been a good day. Hell, it's been a great day. Might go and enjoy a beverage with Mrs now.

Raymondo said:

Pete, we crossed in the post. Good advice as always.

As said to 5t, overall it has been a good day. Hell, it's been a great day. Might go and enjoy a beverage with Mrs now.

Click to expand...

There ya go - another occasion on which to earn brownie points with Madam!

When I got my '76, the clutch was seized as tight as a frozen turkey. When I bought the bike - she was totally dead, but at the time, I was actually more worried about the clutch being wrecked and possibly the gearbox than I was about the dead engine or the absolutely ruined wiring. As is now clear, I needn't have worried as the XS650 clutch, while a wee bit finicky to adjust, truly is as tough as nails and very easy to repair if it is worn out.

Anyhow, I changed the oil to make sure that whatever was inside the engine was good and then I lashed the clutch lever to the handlebar (it really wouldn't move at all in any event) and put her in second gear. Then I just sat on the bike listening to music while I rocked it back and forth "Fred Flintstone" style on the garage floor. The bike would only move about 5-10 inches (ie. the amount controlled by the driveline lash and slack in the drive chain) but I just kept rocking it back and forth in time to the music. After about 1/2 an hour, I realized that I had actually moved 6-7 feet (around 2 meters) and yet, there was no skid mark on the floor. Also, the clutch lever was now touching the handlebar. Hmmmmm….

At that point, I adjusted the clutch as per the instructions above and lashed it tight again (but now it was lashed right to the handlebar). After about another 1/2 hour of "Bedrock" style motoring, I found that I could paddle around all over the driveway and so I popped her up on the centre stand and stuck into first and sat on the ground while pushing the rear wheel around and around. After another 1/2 hour, the clutch was completely free (except for the inevitable drag caused by the engine oil in the wet clutch).

Since then, I have put well over 10,000 miles on that bike and have never done anything more to the clutch except adjust it.

It's possible the PO put oil in it that's not wet clutch compatible... ie full of slick chemicals.

Ahhhhh….YES!! I hadn't thought of that Jim - but it sure sounds as though that could be the source of Raymond's problem.

Basically, you do NOT want to ever install oil that has an "Energy Conserving" API label on it. If you have a look at the attached note on API (American Petroleum Institute) oil specifications you will see the round API "Energy Conserving" label depicted at the top of page 1.

Oils bearing that logo have a special additive formulation that reduces friction - BUT - it also causes wet clutches to slip.

I think that if you change your oil a couple of times, you can essentially "flush" out that chemistry and get back to normal operation.

Gentlemen, very heartened by your posts!

The message I get from 5T is that the clutch is fussy to adjust right and if I rebuild it need to pay attention to aligning the pressure plate (and fitting all those washers and push-rods correctly).

Pete's story paints a vivid picture but message is the Yamaha clutch is robust and can recover from neglect and abuse.

And Jim's suggestion that inappropriate oil might have been used gives me the hope that the clutch might sort itself out now that I've put proper motorcycle-formulated oil in there. I filled her with Putoline Sport 4 10w-40, JASO MA2, API SL semi-synthetic. And intend to do a change of oil and filter soon.

From my limited understanding of oils, the Sport 4 is formulated for a wet clutch engine. Putoline only sells m/c oils and I once had a very helpful telephone call with a bloke from their technical department about what to put in a 1970 Triumph 650. He said the problem is that all modern oils have detergents which wash off combustion by-products and really need an in-line paper filter but for an old engine like the Triumph, which only has a wire mesh, best compromise was to buy the Sport 4 as one of their lower-tech oils and change it frequently, say every 1000 miles. In fact, I fitted an in-line filter into the Triumph on the return pipe to the external oil tank. It was held in a sweetcorn can, lined with old inner tube, and cable-tied to the frame upright out of site below the battery. But I digress.

The other advantage of Putoline is that the village motorcycle engineer stocks it.

So, here's my plan. Suggestions welcome.

I will continue to mess about with the XS, short runs and tinkering, for a few more miles and see if the clutch gets any better. Then I'll assess the situation and either just change the oil and filter OR consider pulling the clutch apart.

I would consider that 10W-40 a tad light but you should be fine using it for your break-in. The accepted norm on these is 20W-50 so you may want to switch to that at the next oil change. At the very least, the topend will run quieter with the heavier oil.

Yup - agreed. The only proviso would be if you are riding later in the autumn when the cooler weather comes along. At that point, a switch to 10W40 might be the way to go (depending on how fast you are travelling). If your typical usage is on motorways, then the 20W50 might be better but if you are just toodling around on smaller and slower country roads, then perhaps the less viscous oil might work better.

I have one of DogBunny's dipstick thermometers on (or is it in?) Lucille (now - no smart remarks you boys) and at lower speeds, it seems to run at just about 200 deg. F but when I get onto the superslab and step it up to 60-70+ MPH, the temperature immediately rises to between 225 and 250 deg. F.

Now, I am not calibrated enough to know if that is normal / harmful, but the extra 10-15 MPH certainly makes the engine run appreciably hotter.

Pete

I think UK bikers use 10W40 because our ambient is a tad lower than in the USA? But will certainly consider a 20W50.

I have those thermo dip sticks in both of mine and see about the same. I do notice the '83 with the overall leaner BS34s heats up quicker and runs a tad hotter than the '78 w/ BS38s.

Happen to have a can of 20W-50 in the garage, been hanging around since I used to ride bikes manufactured in North America.





The blurb on their website says:

Formula V-Twin 20W-50 is an advanced semi-synthetic 4-stroke motorcycle oil which contains the unique Putoline N-TECH® additive system. N-TECH® additive technology guarantees:

• Excellent wet clutch compatibility
• Minimal engine and transmission wear
• Minimal oil consumption
• Excellent viscosity properties even at low temperatures, which significantly prevents wear on cold starts
• Excellent cleaning properties ensures long-term and optimum engine performance
• Excellent lubrication properties throughout the entire service life This specially developed motorcycle oil is designed for all V-Twin motorcycles where a 20W-50 is specified.

Can't see anything in there which rules it out for use in XS650, in fact I think Putoline's design objective was to meet the loading characteristics of engines with roller instead of plain bearings. Might use it for the next couple of changes and see how that goes.

Similar in price to Sport 4 10W-40

Back to the usual today - short rides and tinkering. Adjusted the clutch at the l/h crankcase again.

Good job I've made it a habit to use the kick-start. Today, tried the electric button and not a thing. Soon discovered the fuse has burnt out. No idea why.

The Haynes manual says if the starter button is dead, the solenoid is kaput. But, will have a look at the wiring and try to think whether anything else might cause a fuse to blow. Dodgy connection?

On the road, again felt the carburation not as bad as it was. Or, I'm just adapting how I apply throttle. As we reach 3,000 rpm, engine doesn't seem to hold back/refuse/fart as bad. But, as soon as I ask for any power, the clutch abruptly lets go and revs shoot up. Hmm.

Still oil collecting on fins below l/h plug and I think it must be from the points cover - the exhaust tappet cover looks fine. So probably camshaft oil seal, but luckily I've got two of those in the spares box . . .

Otherwise, not too bad.

Raymondo said:

designed for all V-Twin motorcycles

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Hmmmm...I’ve done a bit of work on lubricating oils and I’ve even worked in the offshore drilling industry, and while I certainly agree that oil is a remarkable substance, I simply cannot understand how an oil molecule could possibly know the cylinder configuration of the engine in which it was being used.

Perhaps the Putinlene brand is extra smart as well as extra slimey...

Sorry, that should have been Putolene.

Oooops, no politics, my bad.

In any event, you should be fine using it in a vertical twin engine.

MaxPete said:

Hmmmm...I’ve done a bit of work on lubricating oils and I’ve even worked in the offshore drilling industry, and while I certainly agree that oil is a remarkable substance, I simply cannot understand how an oil molecule could possibly know the cylinder configuration of the engine in which it was being used.
. . .
In any event, you should be fine using it in a vertical twin engine.

Click to expand...

Your thoughts and mine. I suspect they have gone for resistance to the point loadings in a roller bearing engine as opposed to the different characteristics of plain bearings.

Been another good day on my journey with the 650. Several runs out and a few adjustments.

There was a hiccup - blown fuse which killed the starter circuit. PO has fitted a small fuse box near the battery with four standard spade fuses so trip to Galashiels on the W800 to buy an assortment for £3. Replaced the 10 Amp which had blown and it hasn't blown again . . .

Even used the starter button once just to provoke. But generally, I'm kicking her into life. Oddly, seems to start from cold better without any choke - just a touch of throttle. Puzzled because most bikes seem to want full choke for the first start of the day.

The carburation does in fact seem to have improved with running. There's still a hesitation at 3,000 rpm but easy to drive through it as long as the clutch holds up. And, here I know I'm just being too optimistic, clutch wasn't quite such a PITA the last time out. Even gave her a tiny bit of throttle up to about 60 and it didn't let go. Could be that the problem was wrong oil before and the clutch is getting over it now? Or could be that I have become an expert at giving just enough throttle to avoid slippage . . .

Random notes. Handling feels steady and secure. But we've not being doing high speeds. Front brake squeals as you stop. And the bike could do with a bit more brakes. Vibration is noticeable but not what I would call bad at mid rev range - 3-4,000. Don't know whether it will smooth out at higher revs? 60 comes up at about 4,300 rpm. So about 14 mph per 1,000 revs in fifth. Mirrors are self-adjusting. Especially the right one. Comical but will soon become annoying. Slight 'click' from the steering head as we stop at junctions - head bearings need looked at and adjusted or replaced. Given all the things that have been done on the bike, I think it likely that PO will have put tapered rollers in there. But if that was recent, they may need a touch more tightness.

Oh, the Triumph silencers Bob commented on? When I ran the bike briefly in the garage in June, before the rebuild, it sounded rough and far too loud. But now, on the open road, words like throaty and mellow come to mind. But not so loud I'm worried about being pulled over.

They are only very short runs but we've covered nearly 40 miles together now.

Clutch slip can be an issue on these but usually not as bad as yours. The usual fix is replacement slightly more heavy duty springs. The originals have gone soft on many of these now. But, you won't really know what's up with yours until you open it up and have a look-see.