(1977 Xs650D) Bike Stalling on 1st Gear, Clutch Engaging....

MadHatch

XS650 Enthusiast
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Hey all,

I'm so awfully close to riding, and thought today would be the day after a long couple nights of wiring nonsense straightened out. But I've had a strange thing happen, that I need help sorting out.

Bike: 1977 XS650D

I had the bike idling nice today, was letting it warm up to go on the first good ride in while, go to put it in first, and stalled immediately. Thought maybe my clutch wasn't engaging after a few tries, so I pulled off the clutch adjuster plate on the left side of the engine, and adjusted a little tighter, but still while holding the clutch in, in first gear, the gears would catch. So I pulled the bike reluctantly back into the garage, drained the oil, pulled the right side cover off, to examine the clutch plates and see if they were just gummy from the bike sitting for several months. I went through all the plates, they're not in perfect shape, but didn't seem too worn down and I didn't see any red flags. So following the tech section, I reinstalled the full clutch via the videos from the tech section. And sure enough, even with the clutch plates engaging when I pull the clutch, my gears are still acting as if the clutch is not engaging or being pulled... I've recording a video showing the exact action, to show you guys how the plates are moving, and how when I rotate the back tire (in first gear) with the clutch pulled, it hits a wall, and won't go any further, or "stalls out" without the engine on.

The last time I opened the right engine cover was several months ago, I did so to tighten the clip on the starter motor, cause it was making a ton of starter noise. After I tightened the clip following some of the threads, the noise went away :). Thanks to 5twins

I put the starter back in, and while doing so, the kickstart popped out on me, so I put that back in as well, to what seemed correct, followed my manual, a mix of threads, and video to make sure both the kick + starter went in correct.

I guess several months ago when I did this, I never actually put it in first gear.... I must have just idled, and been happy that the kick + starter both worked seemingly as they should. (Cold Winters in NYC, had me not ride it around the block at the time.)

So now I'm pretty confused. Could this be from installing the starter gear incorrectly that it would "catch" in first gear no matter if you have the clutch pulled or not? Could it be the kick start with the same theory? I examined everything, photos attached, and I'm not finding anything off or weird.... Let me know if anything sticks out to you guys.

I've never had any clutch issues in the past, so I'm assuming it's me installing the starter or kickstart incorrectly without realizing... maybe these symptoms may be something obvious for someone whos done this before, or the videos/pictures show something obvious to someone else who's more experienced with rebuilding the right side might point out something obvious.

VIDEO HERE SHOWING GEARS CATCHING

Help!
 

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Ok. You could have a problem but. Pull the clutch in and kick it over, key off. Kick it a few times. After you kick it a few times it should slip with the clutch lever pulled in and not rotate the engine. Yes or no?
 
Copy that Thuban, I'll give it a go when I walk down to the garage in a bit and let you know the outcome. Thanks!
 
When you reassembled your clutch, did you align the pressure plate properly? There's a little dot stamped into the end of one of the teeth on the inner hub .....

8nxM2L0.jpg


You must fit the pressure plate on so this dot shows through the little hole in the plate .....

c0KGVLw.jpg
 
Hey 5twins,

I did, this was a big point in the video from the tech, so I made sure to align the dot, and double check. I wish it was this, but yes, the dot is aligned.
 
Seems like with or without the clutch being pulled, you're getting the same result...so perhaps do some eliminating of factors to see what it's not.

For example, if the clutch plates are removed, does the wheel still lock up? Which would lead me to look at a locked up transmission, locked up starter gear/kick start gear...or if it's the clutch itself that's the limiting factor.
 
Hey Brassneck,

Precisely. The same thing was happening either way. I haven't been down to the garage to test the kickstart with key off yet, but will tonight or tomorrow.

With the clutch plates removed, I know that it was still locking up. I haven't dove into anything except the starter gear + kickstart gear, so if the kickstart with key off, and clutch lever pulled doesn't work, then I'll try dissembling + reinstalling the kick start, then with no luck, I'll move on to the starter gear. And see if I come across any problems/solutions.
 
The outer clutch basket has a gear on it that ties into the crank. The inner basket is mounted on the end of one of the tranny shafts. The two baskets are tied together, connecting the tranny to the crank and engine, by the plates. If they're tied together with the clutch plates removed then something's wrong with your basket assembly. Maybe you got the spacer washer sequence wrong and the two baskets are locked together even without the plates installed. A quick test would be with the plates removed and the tranny in neutral, the inner basket should spin freely inside the outer basket. Here's a diagram for the washer assembly sequence .....

wfEBron.jpg


It's also possible for the needle bearing to fall out of place while you're assembling the hubs. That can cause issues as well.
 
Ok. You could have a problem but. Pull the clutch in and kick it over, key off. Kick it a few times. After you kick it a few times it should slip with the clutch lever pulled in and not rotate the engine. Yes or no?

Hey Thuban,

Finally am at the garage and have the day to try and sort out what the deal is. Checking off my list. I've left the key off, pulled the clutch lever in, and kicked the bike over, it initially was turning the engine and had some compression, but gave out after several kick overs, to eventually be totally free on the kick start. Like kicking through thin air.

However, After this, with the bike in 1st, and the clutch lever pulled in, the tire jaults when you try to spin it, so I feel like something else may still be the problem?

Going to open up the right side, and run a few tests. Hoping to work my way through things, rebuilding the clutch again and taking photos of the assemly + washers, then will rebuild the kick start if I'm still having the same issues.
 
The outer clutch basket has a gear on it that ties into the crank. The inner basket is mounted on the end of one of the tranny shafts. The two baskets are tied together, connecting the tranny to the crank and engine, by the plates. If they're tied together with the clutch plates removed then something's wrong with your basket assembly. Maybe you got the spacer washer sequence wrong and the two baskets are locked together even without the plates installed. A quick test would be with the plates removed and the tranny in neutral, the inner basket should spin freely inside the outer basket. Here's a diagram for the washer assembly sequence .....

wfEBron.jpg


It's also possible for the needle bearing to fall out of place while you're assembling the hubs. That can cause issues as well.

----

Hey @5twins

After removing my entire clutch assembly this is what I'm finding. With the entire assembly off, while rotation the rotor, the bike will shift into all gears smoothly. This is a good sign, yeah? Seems to potentially limit it down to the clutch, which looks like I have a few differences in my assembly. I've taken photos and labeled my assembly in order. I'm noticing a few washers not in the correct order, and the sizing of a few of my washers seems different than your breakdown. Would my bike being a 1977 make this difference?

Photos attached below:
 

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Quick update on my progress. I've created a chart of the tests I've ran, and the results. With both the starter gear removed, and the kick start removed, the same problem persists with the clutch installed. This leads me to think the clutch assembly is causing the problem. @5twins you mentioned a "needle bearing", where is this located?

CLUTCH TESTING DAY

Test 1:
Test
: Holding Clutch lever in 1st gear, kicking kick start with key off
Result: Kicks through, and then eventually totally frees up with no tension. Like kicking through air.

Test 2:
Test
: If the entire clutch assembly is removed, does the wheel still lock up
Result: With the entire clutch assembly removed, baskets and all, the bike frees up, and I can shift from first all the way up to 5th gear.

Test 3:
Test
: With just the clutch plates removed, does the wheel still lock up
Result: With the both baskets installed (outer and inner) and the clutch plates removed, bike in 1st, the bike will lock up. Bike in neutral will not lock up

Test 4:
Test
: Reassemble the kick start, does the wheel still lock up?
Result: Yes. With the kickstart completely removed, and the clutch reinstalled, the same problem still persists with the clutch lever pulled.

Test 5:
Test
: Reassemble the starter gear, does the wheel still lock up?
Result: Yes. With the starter gear completely removed, and clutch reinstalled, the same problem persists with the clutch lever pulled.

With both the kick start + starter gear removed, and the clutch assembled, and clutch lever pulled in first gear, the wheel steel locks. This leads me to believe it's the clutch assembly..
 
So check out the clutch diagram 5twins gave you. You are missing a washer/spacer - the red coded one. It kind of fits up in the assembly against the case. You have both “blue ones” at the base of the assembly where one should be alongside the needle bearing. The needle bearing is the disc with the rollers in it. Lastly, the “blue” washer/spacers are also the same as the one on the kickstart assembly. Make sure you have one at the very last spot on the outside that will rest against the clutch cover.
 
Hey @123petey

Thanks for the reply. The washer/spacer - the red coded one, I actually found it against against the case after all, so I have that washer at the end of the line.

Swapping over the "blue" spacer to the correct position now.

This is the washer that's on the outside of my kickstart assembly. Photo attached below, it looks smaller than the "blue" spacer.
 

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I reassembled the clutch with the washers in the correct place now, I was having the same issue at first, but now it feels like it's starting to free up??! Video attached below.

Video attached of clutch lever being pulled, in first gear, while spinning the back tire. Looks like it's started to free up towards the end.

VIDEO LINK

-M
 
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