Help save my trip! Bike doesn't run when warm

I couldn't believe this, I was so sure....


Fack! I was so sure I found it. Good call there.

Well now what..?
It could still be a wire opening where the harness goes into the trigger. Try doing the same again.... bending the harness where it enters but hold it well away from the rotor so there's no magnetic interference.
 
Measured the pick up far away from the rotor field, while bending the wires.... Nothing spectacular. Ohms a jumping 1 or 2 tops. Really starting to doubt if it's the pick up. Still waiting for an answer from Heiden tuning if he has a used one.

In the meantime I'm gonna try Jan his suggestion. Got the battery on the seat with the extra wires. I hid it away from sight underneath the swingarm. Super nice but not if you want to access the battery gonna change that back this winter.

Funny how I first moved away from all the factory solutions and now 10 years later when I want a lightweight, better than from the factory bike, Im moving back to some of their ideas, because it is practical haha.

Really annoyed with the situation. It's not like riding season is about to start. On The contrary, it's coming to an end fast! I just want peace of mind knowing what the problem is before I start modifying stuff this winter.
 
Measured the pick up far away from the rotor field, while bending the wires.... Nothing spectacular. Ohms a jumping 1 or 2 tops. Really starting to doubt if it's the pick up. Still waiting for an answer from Heiden tuning if he has a used one.

In the meantime I'm gonna try Jan his suggestion. Got the battery on the seat with the extra wires. I hid it away from sight underneath the swingarm. Super nice but not if you want to access the battery gonna change that back this winter.

Funny how I first moved away from all the factory solutions and now 10 years later when I want a lightweight, better than from the factory bike, Im moving back to some of their ideas, because it is practical haha.

Really annoyed with the situation. It's not like riding season is about to start. On The contrary, it's coming to an end fast! I just want peace of mind knowing what the problem is before I start modifying stuff this winter.

Yes Sir
The pickup has no moving parts if i Understand it right. And it is sitting a bit off the engine not fully heat
affected has no reputation of stop working -- but everything can happen.
The advantage with drawing wires directly to battery for testing is that one assert
the physics in and out to the ignition circuit is correct
And one can more or less eliminate that as a source for the problems. Given previous actions 2 boxes and
so on.
Again I once solved it that way ground and 12 V direct from battery for fault finding .
And then after 12 V back via ignition Lock
 
So I found a used pick up. It's 75 euro, a bit more than I was hoping for. Feels like I have thrown enough money at the thing. What do you guys reckon? Try it or....?
 
So I found a used pick up. It's 75 euro, a bit more than I was hoping for. Feels like I have thrown enough money at the thing. What do you guys reckon? Try it or....?

Put it like this 1

That 75 Euro offer will still be there after that 0.5 hour 1 hour job to pull those wires + to boxes and coil / - to the right spot
Outside the wiring loom --- that people with 35 years experience in my case and was it gggAry with probably the same time ...
Are Recommending Knowing that Grounding is a factor.
Having said that I have been doing this so long that I know that people do what they want and when they want with their bikes.
And foremost with their money. And life.
I Fully accept that ..have never questioned that I .Know that that's the way it is ..
But as I have mentioned I go for The simplest cheapest things first. Even if it is unlikely to solve the problem as long as it don't cost.
The other way the most expensive difficult things first ...Is perhaps not the best way to do it.
Shops here dont take on jobs like this because it is difficult and no guarantees can be given and is costly. on stock wiring even.

Put it like this 2
Assume you buy that Pickup with not really much known problems at 75 e .And it not works .Then you are down 75 e and then Needs to do that half hour one hour job. Anyways

I cannot guarantee that it is a solution but I know it has caused problems
It is cheaper simpler
No complete wiring schematic seen
The pickup will be there tomorrow for buying
And if the bike runs with extra wires to ignition components -- the need for another Pickup is No longer there.

But again I have not received any Nobel Prices in Physics. So who am I to say .. It is just a suggestion A cheaper suggestion.
Perhaps wiring is perfect already and grounding perfect but we don't know that. Or how experienced you are
Just trying to help out.
 
Just reading through this is an ordeal. I can see the frustration here. I would like to offer my two cents of info. The 1980 TCI ignitors had different input circuitry than the later ignitors. I think they were trying to eliminate false signals getting into the ignitor module. This design was dropped/modified on the later TCI igniters. Basically the early TCI modules are a little finicky in this regard(in my opinion). Never- the- less because they are simple analog devices made with relatively rugged components(in their day) these ignitors can degrade quite a bit before failing completely and they generally handle low bus voltages. I have one on the bench right now and am having trouble with the input circuitry. If Carmo says that their ignitor modules need clean signals to work then I don't know what to say about Carmo. There is a lot of noise on the wiring and on 12 volt bus on these bikes. I wonder if the cable routing is a problem, given that the bike has been rewired.
I spent a lot years working on electronic systems. My basic rule of thumb of troubleshooting a fault is this: With every fault there is a 50% chance that it was caused by the last work done on the bike. IE a bolt not tightened down or a connector that was roughly yanked last time. Unfortunately in your case everything has been touched, including the wiring loom. If you get to a point where you want to toss the TCI board, send it my way and I will have a look at it.
 
Just reading through this is an ordeal. I can see the frustration here. I would like to offer my two cents of info. The 1980 TCI ignitors had different input circuitry than the later ignitors. I think they were trying to eliminate false signals getting into the ignitor module. This design was dropped/modified on the later TCI igniters. Basically the early TCI modules are a little finicky in this regard(in my opinion). Never- the- less because they are simple analog devices made with relatively rugged components(in their day) these ignitors can degrade quite a bit before failing completely and they generally handle low bus voltages. I have one on the bench right now and am having trouble with the input circuitry. If Carmo says that their ignitor modules need clean signals to work then I don't know what to say about Carmo. There is a lot of noise on the wiring and on 12 volt bus on these bikes. I wonder if the cable routing is a problem, given that the bike has been rewired.
I spent a lot years working on electronic systems. My basic rule of thumb of troubleshooting a fault is this: With every fault there is a 50% chance that it was caused by the last work done on the bike. IE a bolt not tightened down or a connector that was roughly yanked last time. Unfortunately in your case everything has been touched, including the wiring loom. If you get to a point where you want to toss the TCI board, send it my way and I will have a look at it.


Sir
Are / Is there information out there or available . Regarding how the electronics look inside these boxes.?
A few years ago I was trying to modify existing car parts .But got stuck in the programs.
In their controllers. One could find out what controller and also at times find the code in low level language
but it was to time consuming to understand and to risky to modify. So I stopped
Now here is a Gonzo project that appears have solved the magnets and pickups using a box from another bike.
But I am thinking in terms of if Yamaha's actual code was possible to extract. From existing units
That may possibly go straight into a newer modern controller without the need to understand and modify.
Perhaps no controller at all. Was used then.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys!

I just went out for a testride.
IMG_20200926_091959399_HDR.jpg

Went out for a ride with f around 1h40m. No issues. Don't know if the problems are intermittent or the small changes I did worked. This was the set-up or changes for this ride:

- carmo ignition
- pulled the entire wiring loom for inspection. Nothing found, no major changes.
- put the battery on the seat for easy access.
- added 1 additional ground wire from the batt neg to the central ground point on the frame (underneath the tank).
- swapped the headlight bulb. I found out the old one was very shaddy and was causing the weird electrical stuff where the high beam warning light would go on if I used the brakes. Did leave the light off during the testride.
 
Just reading through this is an ordeal. I can see the frustration here. I would like to offer my two cents of info. The 1980 TCI ignitors had different input circuitry than the later ignitors. I think they were trying to eliminate false signals getting into the ignitor module. This design was dropped/modified on the later TCI igniters. Basically the early TCI modules are a little finicky in this regard(in my opinion). Never- the- less because they are simple analog devices made with relatively rugged components(in their day) these ignitors can degrade quite a bit before failing completely and they generally handle low bus voltages. I have one on the bench right now and am having trouble with the input circuitry. If Carmo says that their ignitor modules need clean signals to work then I don't know what to say about Carmo. There is a lot of noise on the wiring and on 12 volt bus on these bikes. I wonder if the cable routing is a problem, given that the bike has been rewired.
I spent a lot years working on electronic systems. My basic rule of thumb of troubleshooting a fault is this: With every fault there is a 50% chance that it was caused by the last work done on the bike. IE a bolt not tightened down or a connector that was roughly yanked last time. Unfortunately in your case everything has been touched, including the wiring loom. If you get to a point where you want to toss the TCI board, send it my way and I will have a look at it.

Thanks for the offer but I don't want to use the old Yamaha TCI. That's why I switched to a new (carmo) ignition.

When I say clean signal I try to bring over the stuff carmo told me. The way I understand it: the pickup generates a mVolt signal. But not every revolution of the crank yields exactly the same mV value. If the values differ to much from eachother or there is a very high or low signal the ignition doesn't know what to do. Apparently it's programmed to respond to signals within a certain range/band.

Again this is how I understand his explanation, I'm no hardware engineer.

Interesting stuff about the emission you mention! The Carmo guy did talk about the emission from the regulator is quite high. This could for sure interfere with the ignition. I did happen to mount the ignition very close to the regulator. Although this has always been the case. With the Yamaha one and last year with the Carmo module.

Anyways on the list is to change the location of the regulator to be further away from the ignition module.

Question: how would one prevent noise from wiring? Use shielded cables?
 
Thanks for the feedback guys!

I just went out for a testride.
View attachment 176061
Went out for a ride with f around 1h40m. No issues. Don't know if the problems are intermittent or the small changes I did worked. This was the set-up or changes for this ride:

- carmo ignition
- pulled the entire wiring loom for inspection. Nothing found, no major changes.
- put the battery on the seat for easy access.
- added 1 additional ground wire from the batt neg to the central ground point on the frame (underneath the tank).
- swapped the headlight bulb. I found out the old one was very shaddy and was causing the weird electrical stuff where the high beam warning light would go on if I used the brakes. Did leave the light off during the testride.

Yes Sir ..
I would put the battery in place ( With the extra ground still there ) and ride for a few more rides.
Warm and then lights on.
If I remember it correctly there is the possibility to remove fuses disconnecting lamps and perhaps other things
If needed for fault finding ( depends on wiring )
And as the picture in the beginning perhaps a yellow 20 A fuse with you ...or in place might spare a walk home some rainy night.
I think this is solved for a while if you are experienced with truck wiring. The wiring should be in fine condition.
And other components are serviced. Almost all.
But it can come back with water and rain or movement somewhere.
But I believe this is fixed.
If not I would draw a + 12 V from battery to ignition components and coils. for testing
 
Shielding isolation.
I recall the maker of the Pamco electronic advance got kinda mad at me when he saw I had mounted it under the tank near the ignition coil. It worked but he was concerned it was both hot and electrically dirty. On a different bike with electronic advance I had some running issues at certain RPMs when my brushes were worn down. My guess was the brushes were intermittent and were creating voltage spikes big enough to fool the ignition electronics, Battery was staying charged but my voltmeter was very erratic.at those engine speeds. New brushes and problem was gone. Things like pulling the +12 and ground for the ignition from the battery terminals and not from a lead that also has the regulator output or that central ground point. may help. The battery tends to act like a big ole shock absorber smoothing out voltage variations. If your headlight was LED, some of those have switching power supplies that are known to cause electrical interference issues in CAN bus cars.
 
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Things like pulling the +12 and ground for the ignition from the battery terminals and not from a lead that also has the regulator output or that central ground point. may help. The battery tends to act like a big ole shock absorber smoothing out voltage variations. If your headlight was LED, some of those have switching power supplies that are known to cause electrical interference issues in CAN bus cars.

Gary, what do you mean with using leads from the regulator or ground point? As in the batt negative is now directly connected to the groundpoint....

No I use the original headlight. Did just swap the original bulb for a h4 one. Since I couldn't see anything at night
 
Sharing leads with electrically dirty components COULD be your issue. Run +12 AND ground iggy leads directly to battery, instead of that common ground point. Battery acts as an electrical damper. Kinda like Jan_p, when chasing problems eliminate any "could be's".
 
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Sharing leads with electrically dirty components COULD be your issue. Run +12 AND ground iggy leads directly to battery, instead of that common ground point. Battery acts as an electrical damper. Kinda like Jan_p, when chasing problems eliminate any "could be's".

Ok, never saw that on a original bike, where it all comes back to the batt neg pole. But I will keep it in mind for the upcoming changes.

Did a couple of more testruns, most of them around 1h40m. Rode hard, slow, lights on, lights off. No issues.

Still find it hard to believe the grounding was the problem but is guess it was:shrug: Since riding season is about to end here, I think im gonna push the bike into the shed for some mods. Guess this topic is ''solved'' Thanks for all the help and input guys. Great to have this forum!

Im going to fine-tune the electricals on the bike. Start from scratch, learned lots. Might open a new topic if I run into angry pixie problems ;)
 
Yes Sir
Eventually one finds it . If you go for a direct line + 12 V to ignition components ( at this point in time it does not appear to be necessary and I don't have it )
But if you do don't forget a breaker switch so the power is not on the parts all the time.
As for ripple on the signal ,I believe the Jury is still out ---so to speak.
There is a Qualitative aspect as well as a Quantitative aspect.
We dont have the answer yet.
Even with Points the extra wires is a solution because rubber mounts on battery holder cracked wires and not tightened connectors and so on ... ....
So it is not uncommon that with a substandard ( not implying that yours is substandard )
wiring you don't get 12 V at the Points
And don't get ground It has nothing to do with any distorted or rippled signal
it is just a plain old fashioned Voltage Drop And Boyer Ignitions nor Points like that.
Having said that it may well be a distorted rippled signal
We have gggGary and we have the ignition box manufacturers Statements
And we have best of all " A SOLUTION " ---- we hope -- temperature is a factor at times.
But it worked for me and now again. Some people would call that a rule.
 
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