1980 NO SPARK Troubleshooting....What am I missing?

RichRide

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I have a 1980 xs650 project that I received about half completed. I wanted to verify spark before I continue to build. The bike has not run in over 3 years. I have videos of it running from the seller. It has the tcbros 6 pin harness and i am mocking up a very simplified harness for testing purposes only (i have numerous schematics of simplified wiring) , i am not using an ignition or running any auxiliary lighting, all stock components, again i am just verifying ignition systems. I am using a battery with ~12.6 volts. NO spark has lead me to read countless threads for days on troubleshooting the infamous tci box and wiring, all of your threads are very helpful how ever I cannot seem to solve my dilemma. I am getting sufficient voltage to the plug coil (proves path through tci?), in fact at times it got warm, it is evident i am not getting the intermittent ground or signal (orange wire) from the tci to primary coil. I have ohmed out (to specs from other threads) my pick up coil, primary coils to lugs and leads, plugs, verified resistance change while passing a magnet over tci pick up coil, verified tci pick up magnet with a nail WITHOUT power to stator, i have checked all my grounds from connections to battery and frame (~ half ohm on lowest setting) I have checked for continuity to ground with all coils and hot wires found NOTHING. I have unlanded individuals wires and ohmed to verify low path resistance and no breakage. I got spark with the reg/rec UNPLUGGED when the tci was initially powered up at REST, I then cranked the bike over with reg/rec UNPLUGGED and got no spark, ONLY spark at initial power up. When the reg/rec is plugged in the stator is powered up and the tci pick up magnet becomes weak and the nail does not stick to it well at all (favors the stator face) . Could i possibly have a weak tci pick up magnet on stator or is my rec/reg bad, sending power to the stator above the 12.5v setting and causing magnetic interference??

Any further troubleshooting steps would be greatly appreciated....
 
Might help if you gave us some detailed pics of your wiring.
... and welcome to the forum. :D
 
I have a 1980 xs650 project that I received about half completed. I wanted to verify spark before I continue to build. The bike has not run in over 3 years. I have videos of it running from the seller. It has the tcbros 6 pin harness and i am mocking up a very simplified harness for testing purposes only (i have numerous schematics of simplified wiring) , i am not using an ignition or running any auxiliary lighting, all stock components, again i am just verifying ignition systems. I am using a battery with ~12.6 volts. NO spark has lead me to read countless threads for days on troubleshooting the infamous tci box and wiring, all of your threads are very helpful how ever I cannot seem to solve my dilemma. I am getting sufficient voltage to the plug coil (proves path through tci?), in fact at times it got warm, it is evident i am not getting the intermittent ground or signal (orange wire) from the tci to primary coil. I have ohmed out (to specs from other threads) my pick up coil, primary coils to lugs and leads, plugs, verified resistance change while passing a magnet over tci pick up coil, verified tci pick up magnet with a nail WITHOUT power to stator, i have checked all my grounds from connections to battery and frame (~ half ohm on lowest setting) I have checked for continuity to ground with all coils and hot wires found NOTHING. I have unlanded individuals wires and ohmed to verify low path resistance and no breakage. I got spark with the reg/rec UNPLUGGED when the tci was initially powered up at REST, I then cranked the bike over with reg/rec UNPLUGGED and got no spark, ONLY spark at initial power up. When the reg/rec is plugged in the stator is powered up and the tci pick up magnet becomes weak and the nail does not stick to it well at all (favors the stator face) . Could i possibly have a weak tci pick up magnet on stator or is my rec/reg bad, sending power to the stator above the 12.5v setting and causing magnetic interference??
Any further troubleshooting steps would be greatly appreciated....

Hi Rich and welcome,
try connecting a car battery to the bike's battery connections when checking XS650 electrics.
One system at a time. Spark first. Charge next.
 
Jim, I will take some pictures after work tonight.
Fred, I used a car battery @13.1v. I will unplug the rec/reg AND stator/rotor from the harness, and check the ignition sys. standby
Thanks!
 
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The setup looks a bit rough but I believe it is all landed correctly. Tonight I used my spare engine with my project wiring harness and components and did not get spark. If my harness is correct, does this mean my tci is shot?
 
Just to make things easier, you don't need the reg/rec to get spark. You can disregard that for now.
Here's what you need:
power to the coil and TCI box (red/white).
Ground at the box (black).
(Brown) between the box and the coil... that's the coil fire signal.
The 3 trigger (crank position) wires, correctly ordered.
I'll be honest... I can't tell from your pics what you have going where. The coils not even pictured, but if you follow what I just put up here, you should get spark. Good luck.
 
The setup looks a bit rough but I believe it is all landed correctly. Tonight I used my spare engine with my project wiring harness and components and did not get spark. If my harness is correct, does this mean my tci is shot?

Not necessarily -- Do Jims Above.
I don't use the Yamaha Electronic Ignition I have Boyer Bransden.
Those are sensitive for low voltage

If this was me
I Would charge the Motorcycle battery over night or so .Until I Have it charged
I Would measure the Voltage battery not connected. 12.4 might be at the Low end.
Then I Would install the battery in the Circuit. and take a Voltage reading everything off
Then turning on the key measuring the voltage drop at the battery
Then measure Voltage at Coil in -- to to frame Ground.
Then Voltage at TCI In ..
I would then inspect the ignition triggering point on Boyer it is magnets passing near pickups
so it looks right passing at the right Distance.

Then I Would draw extra wires to Battery Ground see if that improves anything.
from Coil ground and TCI Ground. if the + Voltage seems OK

Speaking of spark -- the plugs needs to be out resting on the cylinder so it is visible
if it fires. If timing is off and plugs is in one can believe no spark when it is fact is a timing issue of some sort
 
I will remove the reg/rec and charging setup and try it again with the simple set up Jim has mentioned. I have been using a car battery being trickled charged every night. Starting voltage has been 13.1-12.9 range. I have checked all hot connections with harness powered up and noted about .3-.4 volts max. At resting state I am getting a large draw from the stator, voltage on the output brush is about 1.2v. I have not been able to recreate that single spark condition I have found previously at resting state(not rotating) I have tried this harness and components on a different engine setup with no success. That said I believe the issue lies the harness
 
I will remove the reg/rec and charging setup and try it again with the simple set up Jim has mentioned. I have been using a car battery being trickled charged every night. Starting voltage has been 13.1-12.9 range. I have checked all hot connections with harness powered up and noted about .3-.4 volts max. At resting state I am getting a large draw from the stator, voltage on the output brush is about 1.2v. I have not been able to recreate that single spark condition I have found previously at resting state(not rotating) I have tried this harness and components on a different engine setup with no success. That said I believe the issue lies the harness


There is a Writeup that can give help perhaps

http://www.xs650.com/threads/how-to-troubleshoot-the-tci-ignition-system.24161/
 
Further to what Jim posted. I believe that should be an orange wire that connects to the coil, but it has probably aged to brown. It is that kind of hard to tell from the pictures and I also wonder about the coil. Are you sure it is wired up right. send us a picture of the wiring diagram if you can.
 
I have gone down the troubleshooting thread above again. Everything is checking out and I am still not getting spark. However I did some more experimenting to try and recreate that spark I did get. I am getting a blip of continuity to ground on the coil orange wire ONLY when cycling power to the harness. It is my understanding that the tci sends ground pulses on the orange wire to discharge the coil causing spark. The coil is wired r/w hot and orange “signal”. I have less than 1 ohm to every ground and no more than .2-.3v loss to the coil input power wire. More and more I am leaning towards the tci.....I tried this harness on my spare engine setup and no spark. How can I test the stock tci internally? I have a standard multimeter. I can draw a wiring schematic. Standby
 
I have gone down the troubleshooting thread above again. Everything is checking out and I am still not getting spark. However I did some more experimenting to try and recreate that spark I did get. I am getting a blip of continuity to ground on the coil orange wire ONLY when cycling power to the harness. It is my understanding that the tci sends ground pulses on the orange wire to discharge the coil causing spark. The coil is wired r/w hot and orange “signal”. I have less than 1 ohm to every ground and no more than .2-.3v loss to the coil input power wire. More and more I am leaning towards the tci.....I tried this harness on my spare engine setup and no spark. How can I test the stock tci internally? I have a standard multimeter. I can draw a wiring schematic. Standby


Don't do this at Home sort of

But for Boyer Ignitions there are fault Finding procedures

---> http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/boyer-trouble-shooting/

There most likely exists procedures for XS 650 somewhere out on the web I have downloaded service manuals ..I Don't have time right now
And have to go out for a couple of Hours
If no one else post it here I shall look some more later tonight.
Mr sleddog83 is the Guru on the Hill If you manage to Connect with him he most likely knows all about this.

Wiring schematics cant hurt

Don't do this at Home sort of but at the end of the day something must be tried

But remember the Proverbial in Electronics.
Not that easy to translate but something like that

Quickly connected -- Half of it burns

Just to clarify .3 drop is 0.3 V not 3.0 V
And you have checked that there are 12 V or better into the box also --no broken wire or loose connector
And then again a good solid ground from coils and TCI ---preferably all the way to the minus on battery at this point in time I Would try with an extra wire
This has given me problems now and then. On Boyer ignitions
 
Well that doesn’t sound good. If you are seeing 1 ohm on the orange wire that probably means the output transistor is likely shorted. The way I think it works, is that the output transistor switches on, the orange wire goes near ground just to energize the coil (dwell). At ignition time the output transistor switches off, going to 12 volts, collapsing the magnetic field in the coil, firing the spark. But I am trying to remember this with a fuzzy brain this morning.
To check the TCI board with a meter... disconnect from power, pry off the top. First check for any visible signs of fried components. Some of the brown stuff on the components is just an rubber cement type stuff to keep the components from shaking off the board. If your meter has the ability to check diodes you can use this function to check the output transistor. That’s the big one on the heat sink. Just probe it base to emitter, base to collector, emitter to collector. Try it with the probes switched around. You should see conductivity one way, but not after switching the probes around. There might be a better explanation in the tech section. There are replacements for the output transistor if you need them. I have a substitute, but the part number is not at my finger tips. I have repaired a couple of these boards already, so don’t worry. It can be resurrected.
 
Finally had my coffee. Yah, that’s the way the sparking works. I was thinking about your 1 ohm measurement. Was that with the TCI still hooked up to the coil? I quickly checked one of my working boards. When checking it with a meter, with the common lead connected to the base(should be marked with a b), there should be conductivity to either the collector(c) or emitter. I do have a spare board and or transistor . Good Luck.
 
Some INFO from Manuals Not Much help about Box
Like --- if everything else checks out replace tho box

ignb.png igna.png
 
One thing you can do to verify the coil is hold the orange wire coming from the coil to ground. As soon as you remove it your plugs should fire. I like to tap the wire to ground... like tapping a coin on a table. Every tap should give a spark at the plugs.
 
Jan P it’s 0.3v or less drop. Hots at devices have well over 12.0v. I have the grounds pulled out of harness plugs and ran to battery negative. Sleddog the box internals look mint. I will upload pic as soon as my WiFi gets its head out of its ass. Jim I did get spark testing coil and plugs manually as you suggested.
 
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this main power inlet diode or transistor has continuity Both ways, Meter leads switched. That means she’s shot right?
 
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