An Adventure in Firsts: '83 XS650 Heritage Special Build/Rebuild

Well guys I did it. I gambled when I had a feeling and I stranded myself on the side of the road. Cut out at low speed regardless of trying to save by blipping throttle. I’ve tried richening. Tried restarting many times. Wont even stay on in neutral. Turns on, turns over/gives me one rev or less and then dies.
Quick input appreciated if you have any ideas. On hand I have pliers, a couple small wrenches and an Allen key.

Every time that has happened to me it was because of an empty battery.
It usually starts after a while .via kick start .. And everything unnecessary like lights off.
And getting home not letting the throttle down if it is low charging
Check the battery connections and that the fuses sits in place.
The pri position on the fuel tap perhaps.
 
Went over the thread the other day looking for work done on the carbs in relation to the bike having issues with running. This has been an ongoing prob since last sep/oct...............Jim mentioned the systems could relate to the TCI unit the other day.

When my TCI unit shit its self, the symptoms were it would take a bit longer to start and sometimes i had to resort to kick starting. Instead of the 1st or second kick to start it would take 3 or 4 kicks. This slowly got worse and it wouldn't start with the Electric start but still would with the kick start.........eventually that got to the point where it would only start occasionally then it didn't at all...........Swapped the TCI and found that was the problem

Sorry i ain't helping your situation now with an idea that will get you up and running..........I hope someone can.........my input its to take Jim up on his offer, when you get home, to swap out your TCI with a known good one to se if this makes a difference and to eliminate a possible cause of your ongoing problem.


The only thing i can offer is the battery can cause these symptoms, even if it seems to be charged and shows good on a multi meter, but it fails under a load........

Good luck....
 
You have posted since i started to write and post my last post...........I think you already know the problem as the battery..................There is an old saying that is really true...............If you are thinking of an issue then it is time to address it..........thinking it means you know it is a problem or will be soon......we to often dismiss and don't listen to our feelings.............Not a put down, i have done it to many times and even now i sometimes stretch the limit when i know i should be doing something about something i am thinking about..........
 
"Houston we have a problem" Rider in distress. Very few tools... hopefully there is a shot of starting fluid near by? A spark plug socket may be the next tool to borrow.
 
Have you pulled the plugs? Are they wet with fuel? A picture of the spark plugs may help with the diagnosis?
 
Have you tried full choke? Turn the petcock to Prime?
 
I made it back! Looks like we have a fuel problem: leak, overflow, something. I just had a borderline empty tank when—unless this bike eats gas at a crazy rate, though my last was EFI—I haven’t even ridden enough to justify it being so low since refilling; I’ll do the math of rides v mpg. Started on reserve, got a bit of gas and made it back.
Petcock didn’t leak when I took fuel lines off when removing tank, but I imagine I’ll need to check again.
still need to catch up with everyone but yes I have noticed smell of gas when I come up to the bike. I do have a pretty keen nose though. I started noticing it after the bike tip. I can smell it a lil sitting on the bike (not started) and also if I kneel down by carbs and air filter... but then I’m by the gas.
more later just got in the door wanted to make sure you all knew i was no longer in SOS status
 
I made it back! Looks like we have a fuel problem: leak, overflow, something. I just had a borderline empty tank when—unless this bike eats gas at a crazy rate,
Yes, I'm sure everybody is relieved to hear you made it back under your own XS power.
I know its dark now, but it is a question now to figure out if even more fuel found its way into the crankcase oil ?
In the light, the dip stick just might confirm either way.
You just gotta get those carbs more figured out.
One more easy and kinda fun check would be to borrow a timing light. Pop off the left side round cover, (two screws) and confirm the engine timing is close enough when running.
Your engine video did sound good. But something is sure wreaking near havoc to you.
:eek:
 
There's also the float needle and seat assembly. This is what the float pushes against to shut off the fuel flow so the carb bowls don't over-fill. It's possible yours are leaking a little bit. Running at speed can burn off the excess fuel leaking by but at idle, it may not. The bowls can start over-filling and that can choke the bike out, the idle will drop and the bike can die. Sound familiar?
Definitely, but what I don't understand is that if this was the case, why would it need so more choke than usual at start up and for much longer, and be so sensitive to me backing off? I'd think it'd want less choke if this was the case... or does the overflow only happen after riding for a bit?

@MarieKaramazov, I think it easy enough to be sure your fuel petcock seals. Take the fuel line off and make sure fuel doesn't flow. If it doesn't it's not to worry right now. The petcock on my '83 has been functioning since 1983.
When I disconnected the fuel and vacuum line when I removed the tank, there was hardly even a drop from either location. I will check again though. Don't see any leaks from those hoses or petcock (that I can see with tank still on at present)

fuel petcock is also not shutting off.
When I first got the bike I looked up whether to move the fuel setting to something other than on because there's only prime and reserve. Considering what I read and what those do, it doesn't seem there is an "off" position, unless you mean that it's acting like it's on prime rather than letting out gas slowly..?

I have to back the bike down a small slope that's about 40 degree angle when I take it out, but aside from that, the bike isn't on a hill/slope ( it's a little horizontally uneven left to right in some spots) and it's either on center stand or side stand (the side stand is pretty worn though--gives the bike quite the drunk lean). These days I usually have the bike running before I back it out the slope because if it doesn't start down there, I can't push it back up the slope myself. (in ca It gets yanked back pretty intensely to get put on center stand, but it causes me problems plenty after not having on stand. So I don't know about angles being the cause for gas getting in the engine...

I guesstimated how many miles I rode since I refilled the tank, and if appx 48mpg and a 4 gallon tank are correct, I should not have been out of gas this soon. Only things aside from some sort of overflow, bad o-ring, crap setting, or slow leak--again, I haven't seen anything outside of the carbs or on petcock--that it seems to me could be draining the gas has been the need to run the bike on choke for 10 at least minutes any time I ride it now.

It just occurred to me...
If the petcock and one of the float valves were allowing fuel into the cylinder, at least half that fuel would be spilling out the air box and Marie would smell gas every time she walked up to her bike. Any smell there Marie?

I'm tired so I don't know if I've said this yet, but yes, I do smell gas when I come up to the bike now. Not insanely overwhelming, but yes, when I sit on it, I can smell gas. If I sniff by carbs, obviously yes I smell gas, and same by air filters. I have smelt the air filters before (a while back) and they definitely smelt gassy but they were dry. I figured they smelt as much because they're right next to the carbs and feeding air into
Did that strong smell of gasoline happen on this ride? Now?
definitely smelt it more markedly when I was first trying to start the bike before I went out today. Took me several attempts (it'd turn, rev, cut out--which it seems now was possibly due to low gas as, after warming up for 10m, I only made it about a mile+ before I chugged out)

Again, tired, but a bit confused as to which way the gas may be flowing/overflowing now... some thinking it's engine and others thinking it could be going to filters if it was. Seems like the results would be different..not enough brain power to figure right now since I still haven't had time to read how those pieces interact beyond the basics of filters give air into carbs, which regulate air + fuel mixture which goes into cylinder where the 4 strokes create combustion. the end.

Anything I could have pinched or messed up in putting the tank back on that'd cause either the idle or difficult cold start/long choke needs?
The ones from Mike's are too thick and too solid
Agreed; turns out I'd ordered one with the pushrod seal and it looks all wrong, that's why I asked (which only just arrived--2 damn months without telling me anything was backordered)

Overall, I'm thinking the priorities are a (1) new battery and (2) carb assessment. I'm going to read up on carbs tomorrow as I have no idea how to empty bowls or do a dang thing with those. And then hopefully my brain will be working better than and I can figure which way I need to worry about the gas flowing/overflowing. Check the petcock again by removing hoses again as well.
@Machine you mentioned the dipstick to check if gas is in oil--you mean just pulling it and doing a smell test?

In other news, yesterday I did pull the generator brushes. They're both above 7mm wear limit, but they are wearing unevenly... 9.6 and 11.4. (see pics below) Also noticed a bit of grayish residue on the rotor.. (pic below) I don't recall seeing that before--perhaps left over reside from cleaning products I used? I wiped it off with a rag but it took some doing to remove... Oh, also noticed in more recent rides (post retorque) that clutch wasn't loosening up as I rode the way it did before...I'll need another adjustment anyway since I went in to look at brushes yesterday but figured I'd mention.
As for oil in cam covers, none on the left. There was a touch on the right but, go figure, I can't remember if I wiped it out first or not. Will check tomorrow in case I got some from this short ride. When I did see oil in there before, it seemed to be coming from the seal in there.

I have some more fussy warming up videos I can post tomorrow in case hearing it will help
All I've got for now. Thanks everyone.
 

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Hi
I have not read all ..but a Video of a start up would tell it I think
A cold start and then first filming how the exhaust fumes look both sides
Blipping the throttle a couple of times so we can see ( smoke ) and hear the response
Then a close up around the cylinder heads with sound.
Blipping
Do the same after the engine is warm.
And measure charging voltage across battery check with warm engine
Which is simple and quickly done
I don't believe it is a Carburetor fault because it would need both carburetors to be defective at the same time
Other wise it would run on one cylinder enough to get you home
But everything is possible.
 
With the engine off...........Drain the bowls before taking the carbs off. this can also check for a leaking float valve

best if the bike is on the center-stand and level ground............to make it easier to get the bike on the center-stand............ roll the rear wheel over a piece if wood, (square 12" x 12" at least) that is just thick enough that it would go under the rear wheel if it was on the stand. .......About an 1" to an 1 1/4" high at least............

have the petcock set to run/on

Drain the bowls...........pics tell the story. ......use a piece of plastic hose that drains into a container so you can see what come out, be it debris and/or water...............3rd pic is what the bowl looks like on the inside, you can see the recess where and shit will sit.

If no more fuel come out it means the float valve is seating, (fresh bowl and wait for a while, if it keeps dribbling you will know the float valve is not sealing), then turn it to prime, this should allow fuel to run into the carb and through the drain, quite fast.
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Who was it who said, never underestimate the ability of the electrics to fool you into thinking you have a carb problem? Don't want to cloud the waters any further but to me the symptoms suggest the battery is not being charged or is getting tired after all that use of electric starter.

You need to think logically. For example, it the petrol taps didn't leak when you took the tank off, then the taps are good. No need to check again.

If your taps have two positions, Run and Prime, then they are vacuum operated and Run is equivalent to off when the engine is not running. Prime will let fuel flow without any vacuum in the inlet, ie engine not running. They are usually left at Run, Prime is mostly there to refill the float bowls after you run out of gas.

But I would check the battery is being charged. Probably repeating something that was said earlier but the Multimeter should show approx 12.5v when the bike is not running and that should go up to 13.5-14.0v when the engine is blipped.

There' really not a lot wrong here . . .
 
When I first got the bike I looked up whether to move the fuel setting to something other than on because there's only prime and reserve. Considering what I read and what those do, it doesn't seem there is an "off" position, unless you mean that it's acting like it's on prime rather than letting out gas slowly..?

When the petcock is positioned to ON, it is controlled by vacuum from the engine. There is a hose between the petcock and the barb on the intake. The other is fuel. No fuel should flow in the ON position until you start kicking or mash the start button. A fuel leak starts here. If you removed a tank full of fuel and none leaked out, it should be fine. If this doesn't leak, the carburetors can't be leaking while the bike is parked.
BTW, if your tank is original to the bike, it's three gallons and should give you 150 miles from full to walking if the engine is running properly.

Who was it who said, never underestimate the ability of the electrics to fool you into thinking you have a carb problem? Don't want to cloud the waters any further but to me the symptoms suggest the battery is not being charged or is getting tired after all that use of electric starter.

Raymond is right. The battery weak and not charging properly will make you think you have a carburetor problem.
 
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