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An Adventure in Firsts: '83 XS650 Heritage Special Build/Rebuild

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by MarieKaramazov, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    More scary sh*t.... ahead. Cover your eyes if you must. :rolleyes:
    The total clearance between the rotor and stator is about .028"... so about .014" clearance edge to edge at any point between the two.... half the total. To give that some perspective, your average credit card is about .030" thick. :yikes:
    Yeah.... ain't a lot of room for error there.
     
  2. Machine

    Machine Race the wind Top Contributor

    Hey Jim, You recognize her rewind rotor having seen 2 others similar in appearance. Where do those come from?
     
    Jim likes this.
  3. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    A competitor. :D
    I'm not sure I'd say if I did know.... but no.... no idea who's doing 'em. I went to great pains to make the tooling to make sure they're done right and tested for runout after pressing back together. I (foolishly) assumed everyone else who rewound 'em did the same. :rolleyes:
     
    Raymond and Machine like this.
  4. I have chalk, you think that would work? Might just vibrate/wipe itself off.. Otherwise it's black sharpie as I don't think dry erase would do well as it'd likely disappear, or I'm off to the store for a magic marker.

    I did not notice that alignment pin on the bottom :redface: Perhaps I caused the finger break by putting it back on poorly at some point, though if it needs to be on that pin, then it shouldn't go on all the way at all without being aligned on it. I don't recall ever forcing it per se, fiddling yes. I'll try to get out and try that above test today.

    Currently looking at batteries. From what I've been reading, I just need to ensure it:
    --works with a 12V system (many of the batteries I see are 12V, but some are 12.4, lithium ones I know that are supposed to work with our bikes say 13V, so I'm guessing it just has to be a minimum of 12 but not 12 exactly? or there's a difference between how many volts it puts out and how many volts it's compatible with?).
    --fits in the battery holder (or I have to get some kind of padding--or make a holder which I'll likely do down the line when I get a smaller one--to ensure it doesn't shake around in there)
    --terminals need to be located in right spots so the leads can reach
    --has good CCA. I haven't seen if there's a minimum/maximum of CCA needed. All I've been seeing basically says more is good, especially in cold weather--not really too much an issue out here--or bikes that are harder/fussier to start. The battery the PO put in has 220 CCA.
    --Then I see there's Amp/hr. Seems like that's how much Ah it provides over a period of time. But what I haven't found is what number I need to be at for my bike? So far sites are just saying more = lasting longer, but is there a min/max advisable?
    And don't I also need to know whether it works with the charging system, ie. if it's putting out enough or not too much or if charging system will charge it? Most sites are just listing have good CCA, make sure it fits, and works with a 12v system. But feels like this is missing something.

    Sorry I'm bringing this topic to you guys as I know it's basic, but I can't seem to get a straight answer specific to our bike online and trying to get AGM reliable for everyday but cheapish (unless/until I go with lithium) and ideally something I can pick up today.

    [I'm really tempted to get the 8 or 12 cell Antigravity Lithium battery now, but I watched a video saying they weren't wise if your bike isn't well tuned yet and you are constantly having to turn your bike on and off a bunch because as much as they have great CCA (and are small and light), they don't have as much capacity. (8cell is 240 CCA, 9A/hr; 12 cell (360 CCA, 16 Amp Hours (Pb Eq)/ 8Ah (Actual). Also not sure if our charging system runs high enough to charge it yet (lithium needs 13-14V to charge, have to look back at our system specs); I've seen earlier year xs650s run this battery, but I don't know if they're using stock charging system. And need to look into whether I'd need to change or alter the leads.)
     
    Jim likes this.
  5. jetmechmarty

    jetmechmarty What should I put here? XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    I've had AGM batteries last as long as 9 years in my XS650SK. Flooded wet cells, I was lucky to get two years out of. I think vibration kills them. I'm all about AGM. Deka is what I've been running with.
     
    MarieKaramazov and Machine like this.
  6. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Chalk is out of the question. Dry erase might work? Problem is, if it doesn't, you'll have to do it all over again. Best to go buy a dark permanent marker.
     
    MarieKaramazov likes this.
  7. Manual just says 12v 14Ah, so I think I'm just going to try for that, aim for 200 ish CCA and match size to the Deka one that's in there (I think it's ETX14, no Deka at nearby stores) or take out and measure
    Sorry I'm all over the place today guys, just trying to make it happen best I can fast I can

    Got a sharpie, I'll use that!
     
  8. Machine

    Machine Race the wind Top Contributor

    20200816_070514.jpg
    I found a used Deka ETX14L at a motorcycle salvage yard that was supposedly "good" for $20 ..
    Took it home for a test start up. It is still strong. Deka is an American Company.
    The ETX14L is pretty wide and just barely fits in my 79 battery box. It is also shorter so I used heavy foam under it too.
    :)
    20200918_170114.jpg
     
  9. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    thumbsup.gif
     
  10. Same one that's in there now!
    EDIT: just kidding, mine doesn't have an L at the end. Just ETX14
     
  11. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Someone remind me again... why are we suspecting the battery?
     
    Machine likes this.
  12. Machine

    Machine Race the wind Top Contributor

    :umm: I don't know what the "L" the L stands for?
    I would think that would specify a left positive? Be careful in your selection and confirm your positive post is correct.
     
  13. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    Yes, make sure the post positions are correct. The size battery that fits these comes both ways, Pos. on the left or right. You need it on the right rear. That's the other thing - many bikes don't mount their batteries with the terminals at the rear, they face them to the front. I've been using the Chrome brand batteries for the last couple years in both my 650s, reasonably priced and holding up OK so far .....

    https://www.chromebattery.com/motorcycles/1979-yamaha-xs650-ytx14ahl+bs-battery.html

    Shipping is free and they seem to have a 10% off coupon thing going. That will save you almost another $5.
     
    MarieKaramazov likes this.
  14. Jan_P

    Jan_P XS650 Addict

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    In my view it is because I have " never " had any carburetor problems in 35 years
    One or two times float valve stuck and flooding.
    Other vise it has --worked not always running perfect but running.
    I dont think I have ever cleaned a carburetor.

    And had many charging problems over the years pushing the bike .
    Both with points and electronic ignition if the charging is weak and battery old.
    You can run until the battery is so weak that machine dies stalls when you give gas.
    Lights off and no starter.

    As I understand it madame K had a bike that stalled on both cylinders.
    Which is consistent with power down whereas a carburetor fault would manifest itself on one side only.
    As far as I know. And should be able to drive home on one Cylinder.
    It is In my view also much simpler to measure the charging voltage and
    Take the battery to a filling station or shop ( here ) where it can be tested for capacity under load.
    Before going on to carburetor adjustments ,
    Which in my view must wait until some miles is on the clock.
    I have not read all so I Apologize if I have missed something
    Batteries of the older types needs to be charged .And Voltage not allowed drop to low
    Not sure what it is called in English but the plates can be destroyed via a chemical process.
    Can it be Sulphur that covers the plates
     
    Team Junk and Jim like this.
  15. Machine

    Machine Race the wind Top Contributor

    Question Marie, after being stranded the other day, did your XS eventually restart using the battery powered electric start?
    Or did you kick start it back up?
     
  16. To me, I'm looking at it as a potential low idle culprit. PO said it was new, but I have no idea if he had it on a tender or not. It passed the tests I did (load, rev, idle), but since it's an unknown, and since that mechanic way back said he saw it wasn't charging when he rode it (I didn't find that with my tests), I think it's worth eliminating whether or not it's a problem definitively. I had a supposedly good battery in my last bike, but it must've been drained or something several times as it wouldn't hold a charge after about 20 min and the bike would start doing the same thing I'm seeing now--idle dropping when at a stop.
    The above being said, i don't believe me getting stranded the other day was due to the battery. Low gas was culprit in my mind. It started again on electric start first time I put it on reserve; (and that was after many E-starting attempts with petcock "on," so does say something about batt there). Added about 1/2 gallon and started again fine (though still needing choke again etc).

    As for current battery status: I was really hoping to snag one today, but AutoZone didn't have dimensions of battery on hand. Gonna go tomorrow to look at it and measure. It's an AGM Duralast Gold ETX14L. 12v, 12a, 220 CCA. Right side terminal.
    If that one works, I figure I just get it even though it's more than I want to spend cuz then it's in my hand and I can move onto next items and finally suss this low idle. (Car is gone as of Friday AM.) If that one doesn't fit, I'm going to go with the one @5twins recommended--thanks for that, great price! I'd go with that but I'm really under the gun right now on time.
    Had a fun spark and almost fire moment trying to measure the battery or at least the battery receptacle space. Bike was off but on tender. Metal measuring tape touched these guys, sparked big time and actually ate a chunk out of the measuring tape.
    IMG_1479.jpeg
    Electricity: 1, Marie: 0.

    Started out on Jim's recommendation to assess rotor/stator. I got sharpie on the scrape suspect spots on stator and put some on rotor spots too. Reassembled (even seeing that locating pin at the bottom, it's a real fuss to get this back on...) but then it was dark--and i know my neighbors were home and I think they're on the verge of murdering me for running and testing my bike by their window because of sound and exhaust. I'll run tomorrow and see what we get.

    Hopefully I'll also have a battery in hand tomorrow; in which case I'm thinking plan will be to finish rotor scrape test, assess, if good, readjust clutch mech, refill gas and jam new battery in and see where I'm at with idle then on a test ride.
    Re @5twins suggestion at post #373, I also felt bottom of carbs today to see if there was any gas/wetness. Nothing. That'd only eliminate sitting leaking as an issue though I believe. It did also pass the petcock test Jim rec'd though. If I still have issues after battery swap and if rotor/stator isn't the culprit, I'll move to carb assessments rec'd by Skull and 5Twins. Then TCI. Hopefully victory falls somewhere in there.

    Thanks for sticking with me guys

    EDIT: for what it's worth, I was just looking through old photos and can see those scrapes were on stator as early back as October. Got bike in Sept.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  17. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    The battery you have now is the wrong type, the terminals are on the wrong sides. Looks like extensions were added to the terminal wires to make them reach.
     
  18. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Might be worth taking the batt with you and have it properly tested. Most auto parts stores do it free. If it passed their load and voltage tests, I'd call it good.
    RE your battery welding check... :sneaky: The wiring's been modded and a batt. stuck in backwards.
    za.png
    I always cringe when I see wiring wrapped in black tape.:doh: Worse yet, those leads need to be, at minimum 8 to 10 gauge. That looks to be 14 to 16 gauge (trying to compare them to the other wires). There's a good possibility that's your hard starting problem right there.
    EDIT: I'm guessin' that's the last thing you wanted to hear tonight. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Ahhhhhh! I was thinking that extension was done to affix the little tender adapter or fill in the blank of what it's properly called thing
    Okay, sooo, what now... I need a battery that has pos on the right but with terminals away from the tank. Aaand I need to unwrap that and do it right with different wires...none of which I know how to do. Fun times. Looks like I'm about to find out!
    Thankfully I went to the liquor store earlier :cheers:
     
    Greyandridin and Jim like this.
  20. Jim

    Jim Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Here's a pic of my battery and leads. When I did the resto, I made both pos and neg leads longer than stock just so I can use any batt that fits. There's enough wire there for using a left or right pos and neg terminals.... but the reason I took this pic is to show you what right gauge leads look like. Iirc, I opted for 10 ga wire. Yours is considerably smaller and therefor carry a lot less current (amps). It could be the starter load is starving the iggy system (TCI box and coil) of power, not giving you a good spark for starting. How's your wire stripping and crimping skills? 8-10 ga wire and terminals can be had at auto parts for less than 10 bucks. You'll need a crimper too... another 5-10 bucks. Not to worry, we can walk you through it. :D

    Untitledzz.png
     
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