And for my next trick ....

Hey, G! Yeah, I recall discussions with Ippy about the Alto *mystery* clutch friction material. The make/break of clutches. Good to hear of your positive results. Promising.

There's some funny business goin' on there, with our clutches, and modern oils. I'll never forget that sticky (like post-it notes) feeling I got from some recent cork composition plates. Never experienced that in the '70s.

I think Alto offers the frictions in the std 3.0mm thickness?
 
Alto 8 plate clutches are good.
We are running one if Ippys Alto 8 plate clutches in the sidecar.
Over 70 HP at the rear, hydraulic actuator, abuse every start, no slip, it does drag a bit.
Oil is 20/50 Motul.
We did find that the alto plates had discoloured (overheating ?) after one meeting where we were stuck in one gear for part of the last race and it was slipped deliberately to maintain revs. The discoloured plates are still working fine.
Might see if I can track down some al rod with the right temper and do 2M's one piece mod to eliminate drag.
 
Last throws of the dice - I had a crack at the actuator arm, and with a bit of Dremel work got this:
20180602_121926.jpg 20180602_133638.jpg 20180602_133710.jpg
Hard to tell if it made a difference.
Finally, I bought new steel plates as I didn't trust the flatness of the ones I had, and spent some time lapping them in on 400, 600, 800 and 1500 wet & dry before fitting them.
20180624_164141.jpg 20180624_164222.jpg
When I took the clutch apart, having done the grease mod about 100 miles previously, the friction plates felt oily rather than greasy so I think there must be more passage of oil through the clutch than expected. I reckon the oil has simply washed the grease away.

Final conclusion? The thing that made the most difference was Paul Sutton's advice to adjust out any and all slack at the lever as the engine gets up to temperature. I'm sure all the other mods have contributed to the improvement, because I can now (though it can be pretty sticky from 1st) find neutral on a hot, stationary, running bike.

I'm happy :)
 
I believe my suggestion came from TM, I only recycled the idea. It is nice to have an update on the use of grease in the clutch. I believe it was Lithium grease that has been used. I believe some had very promising results initially with grease.

I seem to believe an awful lot today!
 
I now have a garage at home I can work in, a bit cramped but in easy distance of the fridge/kettle and has electricity (!) so I don’t have to work outside when it’s freezing bloody cold.

So, for my next trick, Ill attempt the Winter Upgrade Project, the idea being to
• fit LED tail/stop light and indicators
• get rid of as much extraneous electrical crap as reasonably possible
• clean up the temporary bodge job I did with the fuse block so I could get riding
• fit a proper headlight switch that I’m in control of
• fit the goodies I bought from Heiden Tuning and others some months ago
◦ stainless downpipes + torque inserts
◦ shorty reverse-cone megas
◦ main, pilot and float needle jets
◦ reed valve crankcase breather doodah
◦ Uni pod filters
• fit the Scottoiler
• remodel the seat

plus the usual cleaning and polishing, of course – it’s still wearing quite a bit of South Dakota dust in all the nooks and crannies and the ally has suffered a bit in the cold, damp 5-miles-away lockup before I was able to bring her home.

But first, a quick cautionary tale. Regarding my Dremelling above, I discovered that a bit more force goes through the clutch actuator arm than I thought and I’d removed too much metal:

20190206_180056.jpg

So I had to buy a new replacement from Yambits, which has the closer-to-the-pivot-point pull I was after. Not that it made any discernible difference. So, that’s a pile of dosh spent on ‘improvements’ to achieve diddly squat. Bugger.

On, then, to the current work. I started with the LED stuff and I’m reasonably happy with the results.

20190203_162306.jpg
20190203_162353.jpg

The necessary diodes are dirt cheap, I got a pack of 5 on eBay for less than 2 quid including postage. And the 2-prong LED flasher unit was cheap too – came from Hong Kong, took a while to arrive, but works perfectly.

I’m always very careful when cutting into a wiring loom, especially when everything is actually working, and try to do things in way I can easily reverse if all goes tits up. Lots of research on this site and poring over the wiring diagram before I touch anything … Happily, all the elctrical changes are now complete and everything works. It might not be terribly pretty, but until I’m in the position to do a ground-up rebuild and rewire from scratch, it’ll have to do. Here’s the RHS showing the relocated flasher relay and fuse block (if I’d taken out the starter lockout relay before fitting the LED stuff, I could have used its bracket to mount the flasher relay. Oh, the wisdom of hindsight):

20190204_194528.jpg

I bought an aftermarket RH switchblock …

20190203_162959.jpg

… so I could have a proper light switch, but had to adjust the wiring, unsoldering the R/Y and connecting it to the screw by the L/W. Lots of head scratching and
testing with a multimeter, but I couldn’t understand what it was supposed to be doing, but now it’s working properly as half of the starter button circuit. Here it is being pointed to by the centrepunch:

20190203_174752.jpg

I had quite a job getting the headlight back in, it’s a very tight fit with all the crap that lives in the shell. Here’s the state of it before I’d finished hooking up the wires from the new handlebar switch:

20190204_194247.jpg

Now, I have the carbs off and have fitted 145 mains and 45 pilots at Jerry from Heiden Tuning’s recommendation. Next I’ll fit the new float needle kits … I’ve read all the warnings abut the weakness of the posts holding the float hinge pins and admit this bit worries me somewhat. I’ll warm things up using the old Black & Decker hot-air paint stripper I used on the heat shrink, and hopefully that will help.

I’ve also fitted the crankcase breather, which looks nice and neat. I have a catch tank in the post for the pipe to vent into – dunno where I’ll mount that, guess I’ll work that out once the thing’s arrived, but I won’t end up with oil where I don’t want it

20190206_202733.jpg

I’m really enjoying having a garage I can just pop into and fiddle about in for an hour or two in the evenings. The miussus is happy watching endless property programs or whatever, and I’m happy with a mug of tea, the radio/CD and my bike. Love it.

More pics to follow at some point :)
 
On finding neutral, did you shim your neutral detent spring? The detent with a weak spring can allow the shift drum to bypass neutral. By shimming the spring you can tighten the detent tension. This helps the detent stop the shift drum in neutral.
It seemed to help mine. Not a great lot but a little. And easy to due. Just pull the detent out of the case, add a shim between spring a nut, then install.
Leo
 
Hi Leo, no, I didn't try that. I thought I'd tried everything ... but then I'm still learning about these lovely old girls. It does sound sort of counter-intuitive though; with a hot engine the shift won't move from 1st or 2nd, let alone dash past neutral!
The only thing that really seems to help is taking all the slack out of the cable as the engine gets hot, and even then it's a help and not a cure. Still, while I've got the spanners out I'll give your suggestion a go - and thanks.
 
I now have a garage at home I can work in, a bit cramped but in easy distance of the fridge/kettle and has electricity (!) so I don’t have to work outside when it’s freezing bloody cold.


I’m really enjoying having a garage I can just pop into and fiddle about in for an hour or two in the evenings. The miussus is happy watching endless property programs or whatever, and I’m happy with a mug of tea, the radio/CD and my bike. Love it.

More pics to follow at some point :)

sounds like Heaven to me.... :D thank god I have a conservatory to disappear to in the evenings . I can clean and rebuild my carbs and avoid the endless Emmerdale, Coronation st ,Strictly etc on the TV groan..

love the crankcase breather doodah :) I definitely want one of those ..
Good work on the electrical side I have replaced my switch twice and repaired both and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that some things arn't meant to last 40 years and still work properly so I'm on the lookout for a switch upgrade from a more recent Yam to replace it.

If your clutch has a heavy pull you might want to check that after tightening the worm mech body bolts to the cover that the worm still spins freely . if I tighten my mech to tightly the whole worm seizes up and is really stiff to move . Over-tightening the fixing bolts of the clutch worm mech can distort the metal worm casing making the worm bind.

I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with 140 mains and 40 pilots . I'm currently using 135 main and 35 pilots Z2 needle jets and 502 needles which are working really well with foam filters and shorty reverse cone megas like yours .
 
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Hi Peanut, yes, a man needs a bolthole away from the beloved trouble and strife!
Clutch pull is fine, it's the finding-neutral-when-hot that's the problem. Leo's offered an option that could help, so I'll try that too.
Come the better weather I'll have to bimble down your way and bum a cup of tea from you - Jerry's advice (Heiden) was 145 + 45 which is even bigger ... your main is only up one size and your pilot is down several sizes but you have a completely different needle and needle jet. Do you have BS38s? We must compare notes over a brew!
 
The female portion of the worm binds up if you tighten the mounting screws too much because Yamaha left a "lip" on the casting around the hole .....

etDGoeJ.jpg


Remove that and the worm won't bind up when tightened down anymore .....

5f2Eyrt.jpg


I "polish" it away using 1" medium and fine Roloc discs in a die grinder .....

qp6C9N4.jpg


If you're in the market for a new worm gear assembly, the "1L9" unit from an XS400 is a viable option. The cable arm steps down, not up like the 650 one, and theoretically, this should give smoother rotation without binding .....

9qMD1pt.jpg


uHTbKdv.jpg


This arm is "clocked" a little differently than the 650 one so a small mod is needed to use it, but it's easy to do.
 
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Hi Peanut, yes, a man needs a bolthole away from the beloved trouble and strife!
Clutch pull is fine, it's the finding-neutral-when-hot that's the problem. Leo's offered an option that could help, so I'll try that too.
Come the better weather I'll have to bimble down your way and bum a cup of tea from you - Jerry's advice (Heiden) was 145 + 45 which is even bigger ... your main is only up one size and your pilot is down several sizes but you have a completely different needle and needle jet. Do you have BS38s? We must compare notes over a brew!


We'll have to meet up when you have the old gal sorted ...when its a lot warmer .

not sure which carbs you have now ?? if they are BS38s then you must have the 77-78 version which has different slides and needle jets & needles .
You can swop the whole slide assemblies together with the needle jets between the 77-78 and the 78-79 carb bodies Theres a chart somewhere ....
http://www.xs650.com/threads/bs38-swopping-needle-jets-and-jet-needles.51676/
 
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The female portion of the worm binds up if you tighten the mounting screws too much because Yamaha left a 'lip" on the casting around the hole .....

etDGoeJ.jpg


Remove that and the worm won't bind up when tightened down anymore .....

5f2Eyrt.jpg


I "polish" it away using 1" medium and fine Roloc discs in a die grinder .....

qp6C9N4.jpg


.
now thats interesting thanks for the tip 5T I usually notice little things like that but I definitely missed that
 
When faced with a "reluctant " neutral; Stop or shift to 2nd gear, kick down from 2nd, literally, don't use firm pressure on the lever, raise your foot up and "tap down the lever" to kick into neutral. Just an old ancient biker trick.
 
Thanks 5T, I don't really have a binding problem but that's certainly a handy trick to know. I already bought and fitted a replacement assembly:
20190206_180406.jpg
I think it came from Yambits.
Gary, yes, I try that trick too. Only really works from 2nd so if I get stuck stationary in 1st I'm usually buggered cos it won't easily change through to 2nd to kick down from! Oh well, I get lots of practice at slipping into neutral as I come to a halt :)

Next job is to finish fitting the Scottoiler and fit a fuel filter, between the carbs, I think. I was surprised at the amount of crap in the float bowls after only 2000 miles and wish I'd fitted one before.
 
If you engage the clutch slightly (let it out just enough so the bike starts to pull forward a little), then pull it back in, that will sometimes get it to go into neutral for you.
 
If you engage the clutch slightly (let it out just enough so the bike starts to pull forward a little), then pull it back in, that will sometimes get it to go into neutral for you.
My theory; the slight release squeezes out the oil, reduces drag, if you're quick you get neutral before the oil gets sucked back in between the plates bringing drag way back up.
 
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