Backwards Camshaft found and fixed

Rlauchard

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This is my documenting my experience with the PAMCO installation from a newbie perspective...hoping that it helps others....I will be updating as I hit questions and hope that I can get answers and to a final state...aka...running with PAMCO.

First things first...1981 SH Heritage, mostly stock. Did valve adjustments, cam chain adjustments, checked timing and adjusted carbs in January. Just put on pods and rejected carbs....all was good.

Second...preparation....

1. Why PAMCO :: starting my bike was difficult at best. I read the the PAMCO upgrade was a reliable, quick start system.
2. I previously had to get into the clutch side to put tension on the wishbone spring as it was wearing out during the lengthy start process.
3. From reading others feedback and posts on this site, watching videos and reading the intsructions on 650central, it seemed like something a newbie (me) could do.
4. I PM'd pamcopete directly to ensure that I had my thinking right...he was very gracious in his response......so I ordered!

Next post pulling it out of the box.
 
I ordered the kit (http://www.mikesxs.net/product/14-0902.html) from mikesxs.net and promptly received the goods. Pulling it from the box, my first issue was instructions...there were none, just a small scrap of paper that reminded me of the instructions on 650central...no big deal...I luckily have wireless in my garage and am all about a saved tree.

So I went to 650central (http://www.yamahaxs650.com/installation.htm) on the trusty IPad.I was good until step 4 (Install MikesXS coil, or use the stock coil on ’80 to ’83 models). I'm new at this....I couldn't find detailed instructions in my paperwork or on the 650central site. This thread helped me make sense of what I needed to do to install my coil (http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21114&highlight=Red/white+coil+pamco)

Next post...an uh...WTF moment.
 
So...got to step 6 (Remove the points cam, points plate, points, condenser and wiring).

Have I mentioned I'm new at this....this is Greek to me. I ended up assuming that is instruction is only pertinent to those bikes that are NOT TCI.

I really have no idea if I'm right. This is where it would be great for confirmation from the group.

I'm going to go ahead in this post and get to step 7...this was the WTF moment. Step 7 says (Install the PAMCO replacement plate with the two hold down screws) and so, I went on my merry way...but the plate wouldn't fit on the left hand side of the bike. After multiple searches, there are at least two others that had a reversed camshaft. The threads are supposed to be on the right side, not left. pamcopete, if you read this, it would be a gray fallout to check your threads before purchase so that you know whether you have to remove the engine and head to switch the camshaft.

Next post...switching the camshaft.
 
S, this brings us to tonight...11/19....after a few days of research, manual reading etc...I took the iPad to the garage with this post in hand (http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18788&highlight=Backwards+camshaft+pamco&page=2). XSLEO gave good details in how to switch the camshaft without breaking the chain.

So, I got the engine removed...now XSLEO mentioned a rocker box....ok...I have assumed that is the top top part of the engine...hahaha...top top...anyway, the top part that houses the rocker arms.

I took off the cam chain tensioner, and was able to switch the camshaft.

Now, this is where I screwed the pooch. I know that I've screwed up my timing I know it, I know it. Before removing the top, I moved the timing mark so that I was in top dead center. I tried my best to mark the chain and sprocket so that I could match them bac up in reverse. After putting the rocker box back on, I tried to advance the rotor ccwise to line up the timing lines and now it 'falls' differently...I hope that makes sense.

I need to know how bad I have screwed this up. If anyone is willing, I would appreciate a conversation y phone, but of not, I'll take direction and links to posts that might get me back on track...if you are counting...this is ask number two in this thread.
 
Whhoooaaaa....if you are installing a pamco there i no need to remove your engines camshaft.
What are you saying - the PO installed the camshaft arse about..??
Mech advance should be on the RH side - look for the large threaded end on the camshaft, its when the mech advance locknut screws onto.......???

BTW - download a manual
 
Hi hotdog....first...thanks for the reply....great to know people are reading.

1. I have a Clymer manual as well as a 2 Haynes manuals. I am quite up to speed with the Haynes. I've read it cover to cover and the appendices for the SH model have come in handy
2. The bottom line is that I am still new, completely new at this. I work for Macy's in a business role...engine work is NOT my forte. Reading the manual was helpful so that I know where to go to find answers.
3. The engine from what I can see was never cracked open...again, I'm new, but these gaskets and parts and pieces lead me to believe that the camshaft on this engine came like this. This isn't a points bike, this is a TCI ignition, so the threads weren't used (I could definitely be wrong here). There are at least 2 other people on this forum that have had this issue.

So yeah...when I bought the PAMCO, I didnt' know I would be cracking the engine either...but here I am...cracked, switched the camshaft...and now I think I screwed up my timing.

So, is it that I have to go into the engine and mess with which tooth of the sprocket is in which link of the chain? I will look at the manual again today for timing...but from what I remember, there is only timing adjustments on the points, not the TCI. Help? :)
 
Rlauchard
You are missing some very important pieces.
At this point you need to reinstall your cam shaft correctly it is backwards now.
pm your number and I'll give you a call.
 
Yep hotdog that is what he was saying. The cam shaft as he found it was backwards/reversed/turned over and he still managed to get it running.
Alibeit poorly but running.
No wonder he was flummoxed.

Rlauchard I would be tempted to run it after you get the cam in correctly, before the pamco mod. See if you notice an improvement in the starting/response/running.
After it is running go back to square one with the pamco install.
 
Conceptually thinking about this in my head, without any visual aids, if the the cam lobe profile is symetrical on a 360 degree engine like ours you could reverse the cam shaft and be okay. The engine would be 180 degrees out but all marks but one would be the same. Only mark that would be different is the horizontal mark on the cam shaft sprocket. It would face either the front or rear of the engine. Been a long time since I was physically inside the engine on mine.

EDIT** Of course if the engine was a points ignition nothing would work. Wouldn't even be able to install the points.
 
bswinn.....THIS is what I am talking about!!! I know nothing, but I'm trying to understand what ill effect my backwards camshaft would have had. Here are my thinking points:

1. The bike is not points, so the side caps were 'empty'...nothing was tied into the ends of the camshaft.
2. The rocker arms push the valves, and I adjusted those accordingly.
3. If the cam lobes are the same on both sides, then it's the rocker arm adjustment that determines how far down/up they move.
4. Now...I want to measure the camshaft this afternoon, and I'll post my findings.

Weekendrider was awesome enough to call me and talk me through this stuff conceptually. He stated 'albeit running poorly'. When he and I talked, I told him that I was moving to PAMCO because the bike took 3-4 minutes of electric cranking to start. But other than that, it certainly seemed to be running decent...but again...I'm new. Decent to me could be crap-sandwich to the folks that know this stuff.

Where I think this would help...is...if on the later bikes where Yamaha moved to TCI ignition and away from points. If we can determine that it didn't matter which way the camshaft was installed (threads on right or left), then maybe it's not the PO's that did this, but Yamaha themselves. If that's the case, then those folks putting PAMCOs on later bikes might run into this like I did.
 
Sorry I generalized with the "running poorly" because of the hard starting.
You did say it was running well enough to put 1500 miles on it.
It could be the hard starting is something else.
My suggestion of putting it back together and running before the pamco install was to see if you notice any difference. Be interesting to know.

As far as the factory turning them over. That would be an interesting factoid(bit of news) also. Maybe others will chime in.
 
I'm following your idea for sure weekend....once i get things settled with the camshaft, going to put the engine back in, attach the carbs and wiring and fire it up. I want to be sure I get the timing right with that first. If I notice anything different, I'll post, but until that is finished, I don't want to introduce the PAMCO. Again...thanks for your help this morning...good people these XS owners!
 
OK....so, here's some pictures of what I did last night...before I started sweating and thinking I screwed everything up.

So, as I stated, I switched my camshaft around last night, then I put the chain back on in what I was pretty sure was the same way. Well, here's where I'm at right now before doing anything else...what do you think?

1. IMG0450 shows my 'pin hole' pointing nearly at 12:00.
2. IMG0456 shows my timing mark 'nearly' lined up at TDC. I can see my pistons through the sparkplug hole as I should.
3. IMG0458 shows my 'rectangle notch' at nearly 12:00.

In picture 0458, I think I need to move my sprocket teeth one chain link to the right (or rather move the chain to the left by one link/sprocket tooth).

Personally, I think my camshaft is in the right place. This is centered to me. Remember...the threads are now on the right side as I had already flipped the camshaft.

OK...open for business, bring the :doh: & :wtf: & :banghead: & :yikes:
 

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If your bearings are all the way in and the red line to bearing measurement is the same.
Shouldn't the sprocket be middle of the yellow lines?
And if it was I'd call it a day.
 

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Aren't there two marks on the cam shaft? One supposed to be at 12 o' clock position and one supposed to be horizontal to the parting line of the cover? I'm at work and can't remember 100%.
 
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