BIG MOUTH with a microphone!

[burns]

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, between 2006 and 2010 47,856 people were murdered in the U.S. by firearms, more than twice as many as were killed by all other means combined.

 

[jd750ace]

My source is the NRA. Just as believable the other way as the Brady Campaign. Kinda my point in mentioning there's no such thing as an unbiased opinion on the subject, as both have an agenda to serve.
I liken it to trying to get an accurate number out of the government for anything. There's always an agenda afoot.
Problem, sure. Caused by the typical law-abiding citizen? No.
The Brady numbers are misleading because they do not take into effect population growth, and merely sensationalize a snapshot in history. Violent crime commited with guns has been on a downward trend for many years, corresponding with tougher sentencing for crimes involving firearms, and right to carry legislation going up.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

There's a mountain of crime in this country that does not involve firearms at all.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=43

 

[burns]

My source is the NRA. Just as believable the other way as the Brady Campaign. Kinda my point in mentioning there's no such thing as an unbiased opinion on the subject, as both have an agenda to serve.
I liken it to trying to get an accurate number out of the government for anything. There's always an agenda afoot.
Problem, sure. Caused by the typical law-abiding citizen? No.
The Brady numbers are misleading because they do not take into effect population growth, and merely sensationalize a snapshot in history. Violent crime commited with guns has been on a downward trend for many years, corresponding with tougher sentencing for crimes involving firearms, and right to carry legislation going up.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

There's a mountain of crime in this country that does not involve firearms at all.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=43

here's a stat that you will like and rings as true: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994

I'm conflicted on the issue of gun control because as I see it the 2nd Amendment is intended to protect the citizens from the Government; i.e. an armed citizenry is a buffer against tyranny. The "well regulated militia" language in that Amendment is treated as a surplusage, i.e. meaningless verbage and I think that is a mistake. I accept the Founders logic re: an armed populace.

But the notion that the 2nd amendment has no upper limit strikes me as foolish. Do citizens have a right to mount a quad-50 and 2000 rounds of incendiary ammo in their F350 Superduty?

Probably not. Some regulation is clearly called for.

and that is what the debate should be on - where to draw the line - rather than whether or not a line should be drawn.

 

[jd750ace]

I agree with your position. The Federalist papers paint a very clear picture of the intent of the Second Amendment. Prior to 1927, when access to those types of weapons was unrestricted, extra badness ensued. I think the NFA was enough personally. There's nothing effective that can be done at this point to prevent criminal use of firearms, as confiscation and restriction to the law-abiding has no effect on criminals, except (possibly, I don't think many criminal minds think this deep or pay attention) the possibility of embolding them. When the Brady Law was passed so-called "assault weapons" did not represent a significant number of criminal's weapons. Since the sunset, I have not seen it go bonkers either, which enforces the view that the only people affected by the Brady Act were law abiding citizens, by and large. I have no idea what the stats are or how to obtain them, as far as how many of what type weapon are being confiscated from criminal enterprises. Criminals will continue to obtain guns from straw men, who are criminals that have not been caught, by stealing them, or buying them from people that stole them.

 

[littlebill31]

Again, not arguing here. There are some really good points in this thread.
I was looking at the FBI lists. Notice how many deaths were caused by the use of a rifle, which "assault" rifle would be classified under, compared to pistols.
As for high capacity magazines, I really see no use for them. However, 12 years of Marine Corps infantry makes me pretty quick changing a mag. No matter what the capacity is.
Unlike this trained professional, lol

Notice that the mag is in backwards.

 

[burns]

the beat goes on:

http://www.fox44abc22yourvoice.com/story/20346359/gunman-killed-in-conn-school-shooting

27 killed including 18 children.

The first thing that you have to do to solve a problem is admit that you have one.

 

[littlebill31]

Sure does.
Don't forget about the 211 kids that were killed last year in drunk driving accidents. 131 that were in the car with the drunk person.

 

[650Skull]

Sure does.
Don't forget about the 211 kids that were killed last year in drunk driving accidents. 131 that were in the car with the drunk person.

These instances are valid in there own right and should be addressed, but not compared to the gun issue and they should be treated as separate.
Comparing one bad issue with another is what the lobbyists do to water it down and deflect from the issue at hand.

By all accounts these guns were legally registered to a responsible law abiding citizen. Why a woman has to have 3 assault rifles is the question that should be asked.

I cried when i heard about the massacre. Children are our tomorrow and we have just lost a lot of tomorrows.

 

[jd750ace]

These instances are valid in there own right and should be addressed, but not compared to the gun issue and they should be treated as separate.
Comparing one bad issue with another is what the lobbyists do to water it down and deflect from the issue at hand.

By all accounts these guns were legally registered to a responsible law abiding citizen. Why a woman has to have 3 assault rifles is the question that should be asked.

I cried when i heard about the massacre. Children are our tomorrow and we have just lost a lot of tomorrows.

Most of us can only use one rifle at a time, so I don't see the number as valid. I have 3 bikes. I can only operate them one at a time. I have 57 guns. I can only operate 2 at a time. We collect all sorts of things. It's not about how many we "need" or "have to" posess. Would we feel any less heartache if a different weapon were used, and would this lunatic's efforts be any less devistating? The rock that Cain slew Abel with was an inanimate object until moved by the hands of ill will toward his brother. That's all I'm saying. Try as I might, I cannot totally prevent my firearms from being stolen, which is what happened here, and used for purposes I would not, myself use them for, no more than I can stop my truck from being stolen and used in a smash and grab, or a bank robbery, or a vehicular assault, or a truck bomb, or whatever.
It does not come down to what we have or how many we have in my opinion, it comes down to a black heart, that will satisfy it's rage. People who somehow find thier way to a dark place where this seems like the thing to do will not be disuaded by lack of a firearm. They do it in China and Africa with knives and swords.
We must understand that when someone becomes motivated, by whatever means, to do something this insane, no society is able to stop them. It is a completely irrational and horrific thing. Most humans do not prepare very well for things we cannot even fathom taking place. Take a moment and remove the instrument from the situation. Is there any mechanism in place that would prevent that person from accessing that school, and wreaking havok, or even more of a far-out concept, predicting this behavior from a given person and acting preemptively? The honest answer, is no. We do not know what darkness may lurk in the heart of a neighbor, a family member, or a stranger on the street, and I'm no fan of the knee jerk reaction that dictates that everytime something unpredictable, unpreventable, and tragic takes place, a certain category (undefined) of people in this world call for politicians to "do something about it". We can't. Writing a law of any kind for rational humans to live by will never prevent nor predict the irrational behavior witnessed this past week. It's not that I don't understand that everyone thinks there should be an answer to preventing this sort of thing, it's just that we should understand that some things are unpreventable, and an insane, irrational burst of murder is one of them, because the perp does not go by the rule of law in this instance. It's animalistic at it's core, and the bizzare suicidal endings only further define what fucked up, overly complex things human minds are. My prayers and condolences to the victims and thier families.

 

[burns]

Most of us can only use one rifle at a time, so I don't see the number as valid. I have 3 bikes. I can only operate them one at a time. I have 57 guns. I can only operate 2 at a time. We collect all sorts of things. It's not about how many we "need" or "have to" posess. Would we feel any less heartache if a different weapon were used, and would this lunatic's efforts be any less devistating? The rock that Cain slew Abel with was an inanimate object until moved by the hands of ill will toward his brother. That's all I'm saying. Try as I might, I cannot totally prevent my firearms from being stolen, which is what happened here, and used for purposes I would not, myself use them for, no more than I can stop my truck from being stolen and used in a smash and grab, or a bank robbery, or a vehicular assault, or a truck bomb, or whatever.
It does not come down to what we have or how many we have in my opinion, it comes down to a black heart, that will satisfy it's rage. People who somehow find thier way to a dark place where this seems like the thing to do will not be disuaded by lack of a firearm. They do it in China and Africa with knives and swords.
We must understand that when someone becomes motivated, by whatever means, to do something this insane, no society is able to stop them. It is a completely irrational and horrific thing. Most humans do not prepare very well for things we cannot even fathom taking place. Take a moment and remove the instrument from the situation. Is there any mechanism in place that would prevent that person from accessing that school, and wreaking havok, or even more of a far-out concept, predicting this behavior from a given person and acting preemptively? The honest answer, is no. We do not know what darkness may lurk in the heart of a neighbor, a family member, or a stranger on the street, and I'm no fan of the knee jerk reaction that dictates that everytime something unpredictable, unpreventable, and tragic takes place, a certain category (undefined) of people in this world call for politicians to "do something about it". We can't. Writing a law of any kind for rational humans to live by will never prevent nor predict the irrational behavior witnessed this past week. It's not that I don't understand that everyone thinks there should be an answer to preventing this sort of thing, it's just that we should understand that some things are unpreventable, and an insane, irrational burst of murder is one of them, because the perp does not go by the rule of law in this instance. It's animalistic at it's core, and the bizzare suicidal endings only further define what fucked up, overly complex things human minds are. My prayers and condolences to the victims and thier families.

I think that you make many valid points here. Perhaps this is more a mental health issue than a fire-arms issue. But, is the whole damn country crazy?

When I saw the President shed tears when giving his message about this most recent horror I couldn't up but think "what about the hundreds of children you have killed with your drones, Mr. President"

I think our national obsession with violence has many faces. Too many of those faces are those of dead children.

 

[jd750ace]

I'm more than a little perplexed that the people that will make a political fight about firearms out of this and tout "the slaughter of innocents" as the reason to act now are the same people that spit fire for a woman's right to slaughter unborn children. I believe we may be irretrievably broken as a species, which I believe you may have pointed to yourself in one of our past conversations. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of humans do not act this way, so we have to ask ourselves what is broken? We raise so many children in this country with no personal pride, no shame, no morals, and no realistic view of the world. What do we expect when reality sets in?
I don't have any good answers for this, but that is a broken soul that does such a thing.

 

[burns]

I'm more than a little perplexed that the people that will make a political fight about firearms out of this and tout "the slaughter of innocents" as the reason to act now are the same people that spit fire for a woman's right to slaughter unborn children. I believe we may be irretrievably broken as a species, which I believe you may have pointed to yourself in one of our past conversations. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of humans do not act this way, so we have to ask ourselves what is broken? We raise so many children in this country with no personal pride, no shame, no morals, and no realistic view of the world. What do we expect when reality sets in?
I don't have any good answers for this, but that is a broken soul that does such a thing.

I don't think it too much of a stretch to connect the dots with an earlier post about kids being mesmerized by electronic devices at the expense of interacting with real humans. I am from the generation that predates television, i.e. there were no TV's when I was a small child (say under 6 or so). I can remember our first TV and waiting for the test pattern to come on in the mornings (TV wasn't 24/7 when it first started).

But now TV is the nation's nanny and its dominant social activity. We are a culture that saturates its off-spring, virtually from birth, with a totally artificial and dehumanized surrogate reality where, in one form or another, the dominant figure is a salesman who will use any trick in the book to hold the attention of those who are "tuned in." That alternate reality has grown increasingly interactive and personalized and the hyper-violence that it uses as an attractant becomes seperated from the reality of the consequences of violence in the real world.

Gun control is not going to address that.

But, you can do a lot more damage with a machine-gun than you can with a machete. So, a gun-saturated environment certainly ups the ante.

I'm giving "a well regulated militia" some thought.

 

[jd750ace]

Sure enough, a machine gun does a lot more damage faster than a machete, but not since the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout has a machine gun been used in a highly publicized crime (albiet illegally modified non-machine guns, not actual NFA registered weapons).
A mind saturated with hate and evil thoughts could find much more destructive devices in every day life to wreak havoc with, if so inclined. I can think of 3 without even blinking, and none involve guns or explosions.
This guy was 20 years old. He shot his own mother, in the face, for reasons we may never know, but that is a crime of HATE. To go to the very school that the mother taught at, I believe, while admittedly not knowing shit, points to some anger with the school, or perhaps just a tragic coincidence.
How many existing laws did we wade through and break on the way to that school? Who knows? Obviously, there was the murder of the mother, then the theft of the firearms and the car, the posession of handguns by a person under 21, the carrying of arms on the school campus, the unlawful entry onto the school grounds and into the school, and I don't know about state laws that may have been violated on transportation and storage of the arms, but in the end, no piece of paper, np matter how large, who signed it, or how championed it may have been by it's supporters could reach out and stop this 20 year old from doing what he did. I believe i have mentioned this before:
http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...cle_3b7b0704-3c1e-11e2-a5ac-0019bb2963f4.html
WTF? We may never know.

 

[burns]

well, of course I was using "machine gun" for the lyrical qualities of the word rather than literally limiting the discussion to automatic weapons. But I certainly take your point. A gallon of gasolene, for example, could certainly serve to inflict a great deal of harm.

but I keep thinking about the US compared to the rest of the world (excluding war zones) why is it that so many more people get SHOT here?

 

[650Skull]

Defending the right to bear arms is written in the constitution and when that was put into it was because the militia had helped to gain independence from England and was there so that the militia was a deterrent to any future tyranny . In the days of the long rifle. if those same people who wrote the second amendment were around today, i am sure they would be horrified to see the carnage and people using the act to defend their right to allow these things to happen.

Agreed the horse has bolted and it will be imposable to regulate gun laws to a safe level, That is the challenge and blaming mentally deranged or responsible people for the problem when you allow them access makes no sense to me.

One person can hit another over the head and kill them but when a gunman goes into a school and shoots 18 children and 6 adults dead and wounds 2 that die later, without leaving behind any wounded raises a lot of questions for me.

A collector is just that and that label can be applied to any person with more than 1 gun. Again using something else to water down the problem and not addressing the issue at hand

 

[littlebill31]

The guy stole guns and killed people. How do we stop it? Get rid of all the guns? Impossible. They will still be around. Outlawed, removed, whatever, they will still be around. Only the honest will turn them in. We do have a gun problem. A major one. I am agreeing on that. We have a violence problem too. And we can't figure out why people snap and lose their minds, then lose all control of their conscience and kill. Someone with no remorse is a sociopath and could give a rats ass about what they are doing or what it will do.
Do we blame the mommy who didn't give hugs? The clinical professional who did not turn them in? The Boy Scout leader that touched his wee-wee? The maker of the video games that let them kill on TV? We can go on and on, but the fact of the matter is, is that our politicians have no balls and will never do anything about it. See what happens in the next year. Nothing, no balls. Too scared of losing their precious votes and their jobs. Too scared to stand up to anyone about it. Monday quarterbacks. All talk and no "do". I have gone through some serious background checks to get my concealed carry. I am so far above the radar that I couldn't hide anything. And I like it that way. I have nothing to hide. My state will not sell any type of gun to anyone that has any kind of previous mental health issues and that is good. Some might complain, but oh well, I'm legal. Unfortunately people lie about everything and unless they are convicted of a crime they can get away with stuff.
I would love for a solution to this. I would love for people to stop killing kids, raping kids, not feeding kids, beating kids, not using their kids to do ungodly, horrible things, lying to kids and a whole bunch of other things. But it's not going to happen. It's sad, but it will not stop.
I'm all for any kind of solution. But we need to figure it out now.

And I use the alcohol fact because I am tired of seeing people get on the band wagon about gun control as they sit in a bar getting smashed them drive home. Kids get killed all the time because of stupid people doing stupid things. I bet that is some great parenting skills too. "Don't drink son, don't smoke son, don't speed son" as they watch you do this. Why not just give 'em the beer now? You're their damn role model, you're responsible for raising them and teaching them between what is right and what is wrong. Not the teachers, not the day care provider. The parent is!

And I'm sure our forefathers would have done some things differently if they could see the U.S. now. I mean considering George Washington had 399 enslaved people at Mount Vernon when he died in 1799.

 

[jd750ace]

well, of course I was using "machine gun" for the lyrical qualities of the word rather than literally limiting the discussion to automatic weapons. But I certainly take your point. A gallon of gasolene, for example, could certainly serve to inflict a great deal of harm.

but I keep thinking about the US compared to the rest of the world (excluding war zones) why is it that so many more people get SHOT here?

I got ya on the use of machine gun. Guess it's my military background that always wants that one used correctly. A weapon of war that is belt or magazine fed, which has the primary use of supressive fire is allowed to be called a gun, or machine gun. An idividual soldier's weapon is a rifle, regardless of selective fire or not. Not trying to be snippy on that one, just explaining myself.

Well, plain and simple, we have more guns than anyone else in the world, more readily available, and more widely distributed. We also have national news media that draw great attention to these things, yet according to the United Nations, our rate of homocide per capita is nowhere near the tops in the world. Any student of martial arts will tell you that power projection is superior power. We gravitate to the weapon that provides the maximum seperation from our opponent. It's in our nature.

This is a report done last year on homocide rates around the world. No, these countries are not as large, or as prosperous as the United States, but the sheer numbers are staggering.

http://www.businessinsider.com/1homicidal-countries-2011-11?op=1

Half of these countries have more homocides than we do with a fraction of the population. Does it really matter what the instrument of death is?

Do we still have a problem? Well, yea, still way too many "non-combatants" (I tend to disregard scum on scum crime, call me what you will) getting shot in cases of stray rounds, domestic violence, and the occaisional "shooting spree" (I confess, I hate that term. Sounds like something you would win from bass pro shops). What can we, as a nation do? Not sure, but If I know our lawmakers, whatever is proposed will be stupid and ineffective. It's our legislative specialty.

 

[littlebill31]

I got shot twice in Iraq. I gotta tell it you, it hurts. Don't let the guys in the movies make you think it doesn't. I was an 0331 infantry machine gunner in the Marine Corps. M240G Our guns were made by Fabrique Nationale. A good Belgian company. They own Winchester and Browning too. Ah, the Belgians. All calm and make machine guns. Accuracy by volume.

 

[jd750ace]

The 240 (MAG 58) is probably the finest man portable belt fed weapon to be had today. Extremely reliable and accurate. If you shoot one side by side with an M60 (the 240 was just coming into ground and air service in the Army as I was getting out, having been proven as a coaxial gun in the A.C.R. and Light Cav. environment) you can really appreciate how much more controllable the gun is. As far as Belgian companies, I prefer F.N. to Inbev any day!
BTW, thank you for your service and sacrifice.

 

[littlebill31]

During a training op (CAX at 29 Palms) we had my squad, 2 gun team and another squad, so 4 total, shooting over head of the crunchies. We had 30,000 rounds total. Part of this "training" was to simulate the 3rd squad being "down". This makes the other 2 squads have to take up the slack. It is actually a good way to train though. Then 3 of the guns went down, very quickly, and we had to keep firing. Each gun has 2 barrels to switch out for heat reasons. This left 1 gun to fire the remaining rounds. I think we were down to 20K rnds. We literally made all 8 barrels glow white and were deemed "destroyed" after the training. The only reason the other guns went down was due to a new top cover we were using and this training was used to test them as well. The BN CO flipped out on us about destroying the barrels, but that's what we do. Keep firing. That was the only time the M240's gave us any trouble in the 8 years I was a Machine Gunner.
Good times and thank you for your service!!!