Broken chain mystery

[weekendrider]

BTW, how did you come to spot that chain trouble before it did a complete comealoose? Good job!

Shear luck is all I can say. I was all laid back, legs stretched over the hi-way pegs, leaning against my pillows, cruise control set on 75, one arm thrown back over the packs and the other hand (the left) kinda keeping control on the bars really enjoying the sunshine after the previous days 100 mile rain. I was contemplating engaging the auto pilot and taking a snooze as I still had 3 - 4 hours riding to do. When I get in those grooves ANY sound that is different is easily noticed. And the new steady tack tack tack got my attention but not as quick as the accompanying (remember it was my left hand on the bars with a couple of fingers on the clutch lever) knock I was feeling through the lever. Very slight but you could still feel it. Hands are just amazing things for feeling differences. It probably didn't take 200 hundreds for me to hear/feel the difference get shut down and on the shoulder. I don't like hanging out on shoulders not even nice wide ones so I limped on up to a side road to get off the hi-way another 200(?) yards. That is where I discovered the offending piece.

Tonight I found some round 2 it and started checking things.
The first mystery was apparent right off the get go. It seems to be hard plastic, hollow. and wrapped around the clutch cable.

Set that aside for further thunking later.
Next I rotated the chain, as the broken link gets pulled onto the sprocket the sideways bending lets it start on the top of the tooth.

But as it travels it settles into the gap. But doesn't fully seat.

Rolling it on around I see 1 broken roller and 3 that are MIA.

Well the chain is trashed, that goes without saying. But what is the other damage.
I don't see any scratches on the push rod.

The case is another matter unfortunately.
It will take more cleaning to determine how bad it is. Hopefully a good cleaning and some JB will be the repair.

So where is the mystery mentioned in the title you ask? All the damage is apparent and obvious no mystery there. And the plastic hollow tube? I'm thinking it is from the skid plate that protects the shift shaft as it also shows a little wear and tear.

The mystery is I cannot find the clip for the master link.
Two days before the ride I mounted and balanced a new tire so the chain was broken then.
The clip was reinstalled correctly at that time. But I've been round this chain 3 times and can't find the clip.
I've grabbed each and every outer plate with needle nose pliers and tugged, wiggled or pried.
I can't find one that seems loose. None of the pins are showing the clip grooves.
Later today I will roll each pin on the rear sprocket and give each a whack with a hammer and punch.
I would like to locate the master and see where it is in relation to the break.

 

[Gordon in nc]

Wow.......close call and you get an "ata boy" for catching that one. You know the master's in there...somewhere.

Don't take this wrong.......it's just my opinion but that chain looks pretty dry??????? I see what I think is old lube and maybe you've wiped it dry before the photos????

I see people spraying lube on a cold chain.....I was taught years ago to lube it when it's hot and always after it gets wet. That's a lot of damage on that poor thing.

All chains are not created equal and some were never meant for a motorcycle with 650ccs. Several years ago I purchased some 520 in bulk back when I was doing AHRMA odserved trials........that stuff was and still is crap.......sold as motorcycle chain ( I still haven't forgiven the fellow who sold it to me) it looked the part but wouldn't last two outings??????

Glad you caught it when you did and this is going to have a happy ending......take care.....your friend in NC Gordon

 

[vincejames]

Yes! Good call! I wanted to chime in here because I noticed something that looks a little different on my bike. My first thought is that the PO fu**cked this up and I definitely need to tighten fix it.

See attached. On my bike the bolt is not all the way tightened. The bent metal piece is only holding the bolt in place preventing it from moving. I take it this def needs to be fixed? Please disregard my stupidity if this is a dumb question.

 

[weekendrider]

Don't take this wrong.......it's just my opinion but that chain looks pretty dry?

My opinion also Gordon. Sometimes things don't work according to text book though?

Stopped at a truck rest area. The chain is a little dry and trucker spots are a good place to find oil containers with a little left. Found a gallon jug with 1/2 cup of oil and an empty sandwich bag for a dripper. Had no more got the oil in the bag and a corner pinched off when the sky opened up.
Went from dry to soaked in less than a minute. Didn't take time for a picture. Did get the chain oiled.

The next day was a rest/catch up maintenance day which included an oil change and chain adjustment in the motel parking lot. For those that wonder what the signs of a worn cam chain guide are. 5twins has mentioned the metal flake appearance of the oil. This is what it looks like.

At that time I used a paper towel to "brush" the used oil on it.

One of the members had some of the spray chain wax. He let me try it but commented I didn't need it the chain was already "wet". That would have been the 16th.
The 18th I headed home and ran through rain for almost exactly 100 miles.
After breaking through the rain and a 45 min "blow dry" I stopped for a bite, to let my boots dry abit and a socks change.

That evening I checked into a motel in Gallatin, TN.
I had asked for a floor room because it takes about 4 trips to get all my stuff into the room.
Instead the very helpful clerk (tongue in cheek) gave me a second floor room exactly in the middle of the stair wells. That up/down the stair case was solved like this.

Before I went to work on moving I hit the chain (while warm) with another brand of chain treatment I had been given by a fellow member. Moved in and then adjusted the chain for final day riding.
So the chain had been lubed 4 times in as many days.
BUT I agree it appears to be dry between the plates and the rollers.
The chain came on the bike from the PO so I don't know the quality or brand.
And I do tend to run harder than most but maybe not as hard as some. Like I mentioned the cruise control was locked on 75 from when I hit 4 lane at Sikeston till the comeapart. west of Poplar Bluff.

 

[weekendrider]

Yes vincejames that is one of the 650's wonders. Even with the locktab they come loose. Torque should be 87 ft lbs. (IIRC). But don't rely on my memory some mornings I need written instruction to get outta bed. And I would double check the spec before I tighten one.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Wow, WER. Caught that just in time. What brand is that chain?

Came close myself long ago. X-country, chain really gettin' loose, stopped at farm/ranch supply, installed an industrial #50. That thing didn't make anywhere near 100 miles before it started grinding. Limped to a bike shop, got 'er fixed rite. Twice in one day.

Lessee now. Clean and check your pushrod for straightness, the roll on a flat surface routine.

Lookin' at the mystery piece, thinkin' on checkin' the rear wheel seal, see if it's face is still there.

Next, all chain pins will have 'peen marks' on the edges of their pins, including the backside of the master link. The master's clip side won't have those peen marks.

Jeeze, I'm loosing it. There was another, but short term thinkin' loss...

 

[vincejames]

Yes vincejames that is one of the 650's wonders. Even with the locktab they come loose. Torque should be 87 ft lbs. (IIRC). But don't rely on my memory some mornings I need written instruction to get outta bed. And I would double check the spec before I tighten one.

Thanks weekend rider! Did you have all of that stuff on your bike? If so, WOW!

It's rode fine with that bolt loosened like that but just seems kinda dangerous. I'll do some research and torque to spec. Thanks!

 

[Gordon in nc]

Weekendrider.......let me tell you something my friend. I didn't want you to take offence at my "dry chain" comment. By golly you're a rider and that counts BIG in my book. You had enough sense to "feel" something was amiss....another plus.

I'm just glad that darn thing didn't come loose and wad up around the rear wheel........ask me about that one day when we have a chance to sit around a campfire trading war stories.

You did good.......you DO good by putting miles on that bike. I'm headed out tomorrow evening for a quick 600 mile jaunt to meet up with some friends in Northern PA to do a 200 mile loop through some beautiful countryside and then a quick run back home. Takes the first 100 miles to blow the work troubles out of my head and then once in the zone.......it's pure heaven.

Take care........your friend in NC, Gordon

 

[weekendrider]

No offense Gordon it does look dry, despite my attempts to keep it oiled with 3 different products and two different procedures.
I keep waiting for Fred. A Scotoiler might have made the difference.

 

[Gordon in nc]

My Brit unit singles come with a fitting out of the top/back of the primary chain case that's purpose is to oil the chain. Most of us plug them off but the darn bikes figure out a way to bleed in spite of it.

I'm not sure when I started carrying this stuff along with me but it's small enough to easily fit into a tank bag. I really like this stuff....doesn't seem to sling off much and leaves a white coating that's easy to see. I also had to throw a shot of one of my new toys.......that tiny flashlight is the bomb. Comes with a clip so you can clip it on a hat bill. It's SO small but I swear it's the brightest flashlight I have in the house. It's amazes me with the stuff they are coming up with. Talk about a space saver.....tank bag ready.

Let us know what happened to the master.......when and if you get a chance. I gota go pack.

Your friend in NC Gordon

 

[weekendrider]

Gordon have a safe ride.

 

[weekendrider]

2M, Sur nuff by wiping the pin ends clean and looking I begin to notice the pattern of machine peening. And it wasn't difficult to see the difference when I got to the master. Still had to punch and hammer it out. One of the pin ends was a tad bit longer? And loose it would move side to side and in and out. The plate hole was oval- ed and I suppose that is what keep the plate on.

I think the mystery piece may have been 30+ year old vent hose off the bottom of the carb. They were mia and I think a piece got left in the back motor mount. The miles of vibration let it work down enough the chain grabbed it and pulled it though throwing it up on the clutch cable?

The notch didn't cut all the way through the rib so there is still some strength.
I'll go ahead and fill the gap with JB.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Have you been able to see any manufacturer branding on the side links?

 

[Gordon in nc]

Have you been able to see any manufacturer branding on the side links?

Yes, that would be interesting. Was the broken link right next to the master?

Chains are not created equal......neither are the masters and their clips.

Take care.........Gordon in NC who always buys an extra master and clips (more than one clip) when he buys a chain. IF for any reason when I take the clip off the master and it doesn't look perfect......I trash it and replace it with one made for the master. ( okay, most of the time that is...I gota lot of ratty old bikes here) needless to say......my took kit for the bike has the extra master w/clip in it.

Come on 3:30!!!!!!!!!! Wheels up......Gordon in NC, who's been down the broken chain road.

 

[weekendrider]

Have you been able to see any manufacturer branding on the side links?

I'll have a look see. You good with the vent tube theory?

 

[gggGary]

OK I gotta blather in my 2 cents Hope that will do til Fred shows up. I am NOT slamming you WER done what you did lived to tell the tale.
Yes there is plenty of industrial LOW SPEED chain out there. a SURE don't use this chain tell is rollers that have a seam in them.
Rusty chains never heal, once a chain has enough rust that some links get stiff, it's game over. I suspect that chain had been "rescued" at some point with lube and running. Rust is larger than the parent steel as oxygen molecules get added in and the structure loses it's neat lattice arrangement, AND it's very abrasive.
I have only seen one chain so far with a link that broke like that. Fortunately I saw it while going over a barn rescue and I never "rode it". I have tried a rusty chain rescue or 3 and found it's a fools game. Sorry but true. It stretches worse than old fruit of the looms and makes for jerky vibrating rides. My local fleet has off brand #50 and also diamond brand some of it even has both #50 and 530 marked on links. There is not a lot of good hard info on what a chain is what, the Diamond site really doesn't give a detail list of their various chains with part # and ratings. I would guess they make and sell at least 4-6 grades of 50-530 chain. I have some F&F diamond chain that is working fine over a few thousand miles on an XS but I haven't racked up the long hard XS miles in one shot like WER did on this ride. For a bike I plan to ride long, I think some sort of o-ring chain is a reasonable choice.
PS clean up that cover support pylon and check by it's base carefully? Those chain grooves are often accompanied by a crack from the pylon base to the shift shaft bearing bore............

Someone rode an XS650 till the sprocket looked like this!!!!
Unfrickin' believable.

If while spinning lubing the chain while riding or working on a wake up, you see links that "stay bent" you should be thinking new chain NOW.

 

[weekendrider]

Your is a welcome addition. I'll hit the case with some more / better cleaner and check for those cracks.
Yes the chain was re-furbished by me. The sprockets and chain looked newish when it came home with me BUT it had set outside for (?) awhile before I acquired it. It got several oilings before being ridden but like you say the damage was probably already done. And this trip it did stretch like old underwear.
And I'll admit with the wear on the sprockets now I'm thinking a chain from a TX750 part out will be going back on. You know Ima cheap so n so but I don't think I will try to get as much goody out of it like your photo.
Your thoughts on the old fuel line theory?

 

[gggGary]

Sure, could be an old vent tube or even some piece of FOD kicked up from the road. Thought about the nylon sleeve in the cable elbow but it's too big to be that?
I guess my chain go no goes are stretch, bend, and "stiff links". If I lube it and ride it a few miles and there are still stiff, links it's garbage. I always pull the chain off see how long it is, see how far it will bend sideways. The side bend is the most frequent game over. I figure if it flexes far "the wrong way" there is internal roller wear that's going to bite me. Chain that will "smile" is bad chain LOL. But really, decent new chain is so cheap anymore I just toss anything suspect. I think there are ten chains in the pile waiting for Mr. scrap iron. No sense wasting my wife's goodwill having her do "unnecessary" rescue runs. It's easy enough to have "genuine" road disasters. Last wife come get me call was about 5 years ago when I missed a "gone bald' rear tire on a dresser. Oops, the blow out damned near kilt' me.

 

[gggGary]

PS I do run "good" used sprockets, I think the old "always replace chain and sprockets at the same time" rule is a bit strict. I compare teeth to new teeth and judge wear.

 

[grizld1]

WER, you're an old hand and I wouldn't even think about trying to tell you what to do, but the wear on that countershaft sprocket shows up even in the photo; it's visibly hooked, and the wheel sprocket is going to look worse. Are you really sure you want to use those?