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calling all engine guys...

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by tking308, Nov 12, 2009.

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  1. tking308

    tking308 XS650 Member

    First let me say hello, my name is Todd, I live in western KY. I'm new to this site and as you are all about to find out, I'm no mechanic. That being said, I know I can do this. After much searching for a xs650, I finally found one about 350 miles away. I didn't ask enough questions but figure I will have a great knowledge of this bike when I'm done. The entire top end of the engine has been disassembled. Here's my question. I can see small amounts of debris in the bottom end. Remnants of gaskets, grass, generally small soft stuff. I don't want to put this thing back together without cleaning it out but I also don't want to take any apart any further if it can be avoided. What should I do, please don't say take it to a mechanic. I'm trying to keep this budget friendly.
    The first "part" I ordered was a Haynes manual.
     

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  2. Welcome to the site Todd. Looks like you have yourself a project there! I’m not an engine expert by any means, but I would finish scraping off that base gasket, then take the right side engine cover off as well as the little cover on the left covering the starter gears, and pull the sump filter out. Taking these covers off will allow you to flush out the motor and have fewer places for crap to get stuck. Some people might call me crazy but I would flush it out with lots of water using a hose. Then immediately flush it out again with a gallon or so of parts cleaner, followed by some oil to coat everything. After you get it all back together and running for awhile, change the oil again.
     
  3. After looking at it that picture again, is the cam chain still in one piece?
     
  4. inxs

    inxs xx

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    - there are 2 oblong plates under the motor - dont turn the crank, unbolt these, put your motor in a large tray and flush through with kerosene, many of the bits may be remnants of your old cam chain guide (black plasticy shit and alu filings)...may then try turning the motor slowly while flushing...if this is successful when you first run the motor use synthetic oil for the first few kilometers-this will clean your motor...replace oil with proper motorcycle oil

    - check the gear box - get a mate to help - take rhs cover off - use an old chain to turn the motor by hand while changing through the gears - putting a hand on the clutch pack gives a better feel from whats happening
     
  5. inxs

    inxs xx

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    -i think its one of those new invisible chains - supposed to last a lifetime
     
  6. Oh you're right, the guide is still there so the chain must be split. :doh: See, I told you I'm no engine expert.
     
  7. tking308

    tking308 XS650 Member

    I removed the "plug" from the bottom of the engine marked below with a red arrow. I tried to remove the one marked with the blue arrow but it wouldn't budge. The one I removed is magnetic and had just a little bit of junk on it. I also removed the starter and tried to remove the rhs cover and starter gear cover. The covers didn't want to come off and I didn't want to tear anything up so I stopped. I also removed the 6 screws marked with green arrows that surround the plug marked with a blue arrow. It looks like that is a cover as well but I couldn't get it to budge either. What's the best way to remove what's left of the gaskets? I don't want to scratch up the surface but I'm guessing these are the original 37 year old gaskets and they are on there good! The motor turns over easily when the kick start is moved. I don't know if that's good or bad but it does it. Thanks for the help. I can't wait to get the haynes manual I ordered.
     

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  8. inxs

    inxs xx

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    - for manuals look here http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41

    - XS650 Models 78-80 - (11616-XS-61) www.biker.net

    - use permatex gasket remover sold by napa or gasket goo
    - can use a 1/2" wood chisel, flat at a low angle to scrape with, or​
    - flatten the end of a 1/2" copper pipe, put a 1 sided edge on it-like a wood chisel, use this to scrape with...copper is soft like aluminium and wont easily damage it​
    - if youre keen and careful you can lightly tap the gasket(s) with a hard plastic hammer before applying permatex - this softens and cracks the hardened gasket​

    - can soak smaller parts in a 50/50 mix of lacquer thinner and diesel

    - can also use oven cleaner...eats carbon, good degreaser...dont soak long as most are NaOh based and eat alu

    - put rags in cylinders and crankcase openings...use a shop vac to remove loose stuff before removing rags

    - when using chemicals and scraping afterwards do yourself a favour - wear gloves and glasses

    - GM voided all warrantees when scotch brite is used
     
  9. crash

    crash XS650 Junkie

    i agree with inxs flush with kerosen or varsol parts cleaner works well on flushing and cleaning parts its also sold at napa,i would flush it several time to make sure you got everything out,just my :twocents:
     
  10. tking308

    tking308 XS650 Member

    Thanks INXS for the links and the info.
     
  11. Gordon

    Gordon XS650 Junkie

    tking, you can also use easy-off oven cleaner for the gasket's. It is caustic, but not as much as the gasket remover from Permatex.
     
  12. crash

    crash XS650 Junkie

    scotch pads are also good for cleaning gaskets
     
  13. tking308

    tking308 XS650 Member

    Thanks everyone for the advice. The permatex worked GREAT.
     
  14. inxs

    inxs xx

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    Here is a bulletin released by General Motors regarding the use of Roloc discs by 3M. The woven ones contain large amounts of aluminum oxide which is the abrasive part of the disc.

    #87-61-24: INFO. USE OF 'SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS' - (Apr 2, 1998)

    SUBJECT: INFORMATION - USE OF "SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS"


    MODELS: 1998 AND PRIOR PASSENGER CARS AND TRUCKS


    THE USE OF "SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS" -
    WHEN CLEANING ENGINE GASKET SEALING SURFACES, AND/OR CLEANING PARTS FROM AN ENGINE WHICH ARE TO BE REUSED; SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS (TYPICALLY A WOVEN FIBER PAD DESIGN) WHICH CONTAIN ABRASIVES, SUCH AS A HIGH AMOUNT OF ALUMINUM OXIDE, ARE NOT RECOMMENDED.
    THE USE OF SUCH SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS DISLODGE ALUMINUM OXIDE (FROM THE DISC) AND METAL PARTICLES, WHICH CAN LEAD TO PREMATURE ENGINE BEARING FAILURE.
    THE PRESENCE OF ALUMINUM OXIDE IN ENGINE OIL HAS BEEN SHOWN TO CAUSE PREMATURE ENGINE BEARING FAILURE. IN SOME CASES THIS FAILURE OCCURS IN AS LITTLE AS 1,000 MILES (2,200 KM) OR LESS AFTER THE REPAIR HAS BEEN MADE.
    SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS MAY GRIND THE COMPONENT PART MATERIAL AND IMBED IT INTO THE DISC. THIS CAN RESULT WHEN MORE AGGRESSIVE GRINDING OF THE GASKET SURFACE TAKES PLACE. PROCEDURE: A NEW PRODUCT FROM 3M(R) AUTOMOTIVE AFTERMARKET DIVISION, THE ROLOC BRISTLE DISC*, IS NOW AVAILABLE WHICH ADDRESSES SOME OF THE ABOVE CONCERNS.
    * WE BELIEVE THIS PRODUCT TO BE RELIABLE. THERE MAY BE ADDITIONAL MANUFACTURERS OF SUCH PRODUCTS. GENERAL MOTORS DOES NOT ENDORSE, INDICATE ANY PREFERENCE FOR OR ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ITEMS WHICH MAY BE AVAILABLE FROM THIS FIRM, OR FOR ANY SUCH ITEMS WHICH MAY BE AVAILABLE FROM OTHER SOURCES.
    CAUTION:

    TO AVOID PERSONAL INJURY FOLLOW STANDARD SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, INCLUDING THE USE OF SAFETY GLASSES, SHOULD BE OBSERVED DURING SURFACE PREPARATION.
    READ THE SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS INCLUDED WITH THE PRODUCT BEFORE USE.
    REMOVE BY HAND, WITH A SCRAPPER (PLASTIC SCRAPPER ON ALUMINUM SURFACES), THE BULK OF MATERIAL ON THE COMPONENT SURFACE BEFORE USING THE 3M(R) ROLOC BRISTLE DISC.
    NOTICE: DUE CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO AVOID THE ENTRY OF ANY MATERIAL INTO THE ENGINE BLOCK OIL AND COOLANT PASSAGES WHEN CLEANING COMPONENT SURFACES.


    THE PRESENCE OF FOREIGN MATERIAL IN ENGINE OIL HAS BEEN SHOWN TO CAUSE PREMATURE ENGINE BEARING FAILURE.
    COVER OR BLOCK ALL ENGINE PORTS (ENGINE OIL AND COOLANT) AND OPEN AREAS (CYLINDER BORES, LIFTER VALLEY, ETC.) TO PREVENT POSSIBLE CONTAMINATION WHEN WORKING ON THE ENGINE.
    VACUUM UP ALL CONTAMINANTS (I.E. DIRT, GASKET MATERIAL, ETC.).
    IMPORTANT: ENGINE COMPONENTS, CLEANED WITH 3M ROLOC BRISTLE DISC, SHOULD BE THOROUGHLY CLEANED BEFORE RE-INSTALLING THEM ON THE ENGINE BLOCK.


    THE USE OF A VACUUM, SPRAY CLEANER GM P/N 12346139 OR 12377981, PARTS CLEANER, ETC. TO REMOVE ALL TRACES OF CONTAMINANT IS SUGGESTED.
    THE DISCS (SEE FIGURE 1--3M(R) ROLOC DISC IDENTIFICATION) ARE AVAILABLE IN DIFFERENT GRIT LEVELS, WITH SUGGESTED APPLICATIONS AS FOLLOWS:
    3M(R) PART COLOR/ SUGGESTED NUMBER** DESCRIPTION*** APPLICATION QUAN. --------- ------------- ------------ ----- WHITE 120X GRIT ALUMINUM BOX OF ROLOC BRISTLE DISC (MILD 10 07532 1" DIAMETER ABRASIVE) 07528 2" DIAMETER 07529 3" DIAMETER
    YELLOW 80X GRIT ALUMINUM OR BOX OF ROLOC BRISTLE DISC CAST IRON/ 10 07531 1" DIAMETER STEEL 07525 2" DIAMETER (MEDIUM 07527 3" DIAMETER ABRASIVE)
    GREEN 50X GRIT CAST IRON/ BOX OF ROLOC BRISTLE DISC STEEL (HARSH 10 07530 1" DIAMETER ABRASIVE) 07524 2" DIAMETER 07526 3" DIAMETER
    *** THE ABOVE 3M(R) ROLOC BRISTLE DISCS ARE TO BE USED WITH THE CORRECT DISC PAD ASSEMBLIES LISTED BELOW.
    CAUTION:

    NON-3M(R) BACK-UP PAD'S MAY HAVE A DEEPER THREADED CAVITY WHICH CAUSES THE BUTTON (ON THE DISC) TO CONTINUE TO TIGHTEN DOWN DURING USE. THIS CAN CAUSE THE BUTTON TO SEPARATE FROM THE DISC RESULTING IN DISC FLY OFF AND POTENTIAL OPERATOR HARM.
    3M(R) PART NUMBER** DESCRIPTION QUAN. --------- ------------------------- ------ 05538 1" ROLOC DISC PAD ASSEMBLY BOX OF 05539 2" ROLOC DISC PAD ASSEMBLY ONE (1) 05540 3" ROLOC DISC PAD ASSEMBLY
    NOTICE: WHEN USING ANY ABRASIVE MATERIAL, PARTICULARLY ON ALUMINUM SURFACES, CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO AVOID DAMAGE TO THE SURFACE AREA. EXCESSIVE MATERIAL REMOVAL MAY RESULT IN DAMAGE TO SEALING SURFACES.


    ** THESE COMPONENTS CAN BE OBTAINED FROM LOCAL 3M(R) SUPPLIERS. THE BRAND NAMES "3M" AND "ROLOC" ARE TRADEMARKS OF MINNESOTA MINING AND MANUFACTURING COMPANY, ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA 55144.
    PARTS INFORMATION:


    PART NUMBERS DESCRIPTION ------------ ----------- 12346139, 12377981 SPRAY CLEANER
    PARTS (SPRAY CLEANERS ONLY) ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FROM GMSPO.
    FIGURES: 01 ATTACHMENTS: 00
    FIGURE 1 - 3M(R) ROLOC BRISTLE DISC IDENTIFICATION 1 - SHAFT (TYPICAL) 2 - BACK-UP PAD 3 - ROLOC BRISTLE DISC
    Figure 1
    GENERAL MOTORS BULLETINS ARE INTENDED FOR USE BY PROFESSIONAL TECHNICIANS, NOT A "DO-IT-YOURSELFER". THEY ARE WRITTEN TO INFORM THOSE TECHNICIANS OF CONDITIONS THAT MAY OCCUR ON SOME VEHICLES, OR TO PROVIDE INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST IN THE PROPER SERVICE OF A VEHICLE. PROPERLY TRAINED TECHNICIANS HAVE THE EQUIPMENT, TOOLS, SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND KNOW-HOW TO DO A JOB PROPERLY AND SAFELY. IF A CONDITION IS DESCRIBED, DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE BULLETIN APPLIES TO YOUR VEHICLE, OR THAT YOUR VEHICLE WILL HAVE THAT CONDITION. SEE A GENERAL MOTORS DEALER SERVICING YOUR BRAND OF GENERAL MOTORS VEHICLE FOR INFORMATION ON WHETHER YOUR VEHICLE MAY BENEFIT FROM THE INFORMATION.
    COPYRIGHT 1998. GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
    GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.


    WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
     
  15. crash

    crash XS650 Junkie

    thanks for the info insx:thumbsup:
     
  16. Yeah but those bristle discs suck! and the other ones rock. Don't you think if you use gasket remover first, then the scotch discs, and clean everything up as best you can before assembly, change the oil after a hundred miles and again after like 1,000 miles, you should be good to go?
     
  17. inxs

    inxs xx

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    - id rather use permatex and a razor blade and take my time
     
  18. Yeah probably a good idea for a motorcycle. But on a car that you don't care much about, break out the scotch discs if you need them! haha
     
  19. inxs

    inxs xx

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    - naya - although i ride by choice im not too proud to ring the missus and call her out with the pickup if i cant get home, and with kids im afraid a sidecar just doesnt do it
    - a motor is not just a motor, they have individual temperaments, ask anyone with a monday morning ducati
    - ive had my hands in car, truck, boat, plane, lawn mower, tractor, pump etc motors, each are different but all are alive
    - there are plenty of people that are simply brain dead and ive never had a motor try to fuck me over
    - had a lot of fun in the hotrod scene, my cages of choice were always mopars and studebakers

    [​IMG]
    - the yard hack
    [​IMG]
     

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