Could a washer destroy a bike?

[AussiXS]

I agree with you peanut, I try and keep things as relevant as possible and make them clear so other people can hopefully benefit. This thread is great for learning about disassembly of the clutch, worm gear functions and has pictures and videos of what i, and other people I'm sure, struggled with.

My chat with Michaelo was that I shouldn't strip the engine right now, that I should reassemble and test before I go that deep. Great advice!

The battle is not over yet, as I'm having electrical issues now!

Stay tuned for the next instalment.

 

[Michaelo]

Yep, what most of you don't know is that AussieXS has had trouble before, so us Australians being what we are, like to help out our fellow Australians where we can. I've reached out to Aussie XS before when he's needed help and will do so in the future where i think it's needed. As you can see this thread is continuing on and not fallen into a dead heap Peanut.
As you can see from post #112 he's very dejected and I've been there before, like most of us I PM someone, be it 2M, 5Twins, GGGary, and Skull here in AU, always had a successful outcome with some personalised help to boot.
Common goal guys, we love our XS's

 

[peanut]

Yep, what most of you don't know is that AussieXS has had trouble before, so us Australians being what we are, like to help out our fellow Australians where we can. I've reached out to Aussie XS before when he's needed help and will do so in the future where i think it's needed. As you can see this thread is continuing on and not fallen into a dead heap Peanut.
As you can see from post #112 he's very dejected and I've been there before, like most of us I PM someone, be it 2M, 5Twins, GGGary, and Skull here in AU, always had a successful outcome with some personalised help to boot.
Common goal guys, we love our XS's

I wasn't being critical of you Mick .. I am sure you are not suggesting that it is only Australians that like to help fellow countrymen , I thought that we were all trying to help AussiXS ?


The point I made was general and not specific to this particular thread.It is always preferable to finish threads so that there is a posted outcome or solution for the benefit of others in the future . That surely isn't in dispute is it ?

So saying that ....why couldn't you say what you said in public on the thread ? .....why did your support have to be in private ? what was it you said that couldn't be posted on the thread for us all to see ? ....

 

[peanut]

You make a fair point Peanut..............doesn't apply in this case.

I have been following this thread closely.......2m made the observation after AussieXS posted a pic, when the correction was made and the Clutch re-assembled the problem had been corrected. ..............Opie was distressed because he thought he was going to have to strip the engine.................A Pm and private phone call helped to alleviate such anxiety and all is as well as.................. AussieXs has posted the conclusion of the problem and what the problem had been..................he has now posted another problem..............
.
Nothing sinister here.............All information has been posted...........

If you reread the thread I think you'll find that it was me that first identified that AussiXS issue was the clutch and not the gearbox ( post #28) and me that further identified that the clutch pack was projecting beyond the end of the basket and the worm arm was not aligned correctly (#34 &36) I also showed AussiXS where to look to find the date of his frame for clutch parts identification #40.
If you are going to criticise my post at least make some effort to get your facts right and preferably after you have contributed something useful to the thread.

 

[Michaelo]

Peanut, this thread is far from over (Skull made that point to) and there is no dispute in what i said to AussieXS over the phone, the reason why I chose to converse with him by that means was purely mine. I wasn't prepared to sit and type out a whole lot of questions that could be resolved over the phone.
The call was over a 35 minute period so you could understand that this would of had more typing in it than I personally would wish to undertake. It has nothing to do with it being private at all, it was to reassure him of my thoughts (mechanical) and the best possible move forward, if he wished to take my advise....well that's entirely up to him.
Again, there will be more to come i am sure, If I chose to converse in writing or by calling any of the members that's up to me, in the spirit of the forum I think I have done no wrong, even more I think I've enhanced the experience

The threads not dead man....

Mick

 

[gggGary]

Can see both sides, but for sure a phone call can often cut through a LOAD of crap questions in a hurry. I'll often cut off a text fest with a "if you want to fix this, CALL me."

 

[peanut]

Can see both sides, but for sure a phone call can often cut through a LOAD of crap questions in a hurry. I'll often cut off a text fest with a "if you want to fix this, CALL me."

yes me too ....

I get a lot of members PM me asking for my help and advice off -forum both here and elswhere but I have found it best to steer the help back to the forum thread so that everyone can follow what is going on .

I really don't know why Mick and Skull are making such a big deal out of my comment.Sure Its good to have personal contact with other members but my feeling is that any technical help that was started on the forum.... should stay there.... for the benefit of all the other contributors to the thread if nothing else.

 

[AussiXS]

Ok boys, I am back! Life has well and truly gotten in the way. However, I am keen on getting this bloody bike together. I was going start a new piece but I like the evolution of this thread I created and want a conclusion to it, I just hope you guys are around still.

Sooooooo, we have pulled apart my clutch, its fine, the gear selector is fine, gears fine, so what is left? Well, my thoughts are my worm gear is screwed! When I take off on the flat ground the bike is fine and rides away like a dream. However, when I get to any little incline (in first gear) and try and go up, my clutch slips and doesnt engage, it cant handle the pressure and I dont move. As you can see in the below video, my worm gear jiggles around, even though its locked down tight. Is that what is causing my gears clutch to slip? Should I buy a new one, its like $80 so I want to be sure before I spend the dollarroos we have here.

See below link for video
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J9rAyKBtI4Zw2lAqwXANqFYfo2TqhS1J

 

[gggGary]

No a wobbly worm won't cause 1st gear to slip. (but it'll sure tick off a girlfriend )
But you need either an offset box wrench or a deep socket in a vicegrip to set it.
There's plenty of threads on this but loosen nut, back off adjuster at handlebar, loosen screw, then snug it back in till you can feel it completely contact the push rod, back the screw off just a little, 1/6 of a turn or one flat is plenty. Now you HAVE to keep the screwdriver on the screw while you tighten the nut. Go ahead snug the nut. We will assume the worm has been completely apart, inspected for any cracks in the nylon, reassembled with lots of fresh grease, the ball is still inside the worm. Now turn the perch adjuster out till there is just 1/4" of wiggle in your handle.
Also assumed; cable moves freely with no bind, it's lubed, has no sharp bends. Lever has been removed from perch the lever hole is not all worn out. reassembled with lube. If it's an aftermarket lever it has the proper dimensions so the pull is correct (kinda rare).

 

[peanut]

good description Gary. I know that you didn't mean literally fill the worm with grease though because that causes a huge hydraulic pressure to build up in the worm.
I made the mistake of filling my worm (ooh er) and I could barely move the worm arm after that.

My feeling is that providing there is definitely a little free movement in the clutch cable when at rest then the issue has to lie elsewhere.
I would check that both the clutch cable and the worm arm is returning smartly on releasing the clutch lever and that there is a little free play at the lever when fully released.
If that checks out then the issue has to lie with the clutch assembly ie plates sticking , tangs binding maybe ?


Just thought of another couple of common issues that can cause clutch problems and that is one of the ball bearings missing,( particularly the one in the worm). Fitting the clutch rod the wrong way round.( the narrow end goes into the worm) and lastly over-tightening the worm into the casing can lock up the worm arm because it distorts the worm bracket

 

[Paul Sutton]

I am a bit confused on this one. Are we saying the clutch is just slipping badly under load? This could just be a matter of old wornout clutch springs?? With the engine off and 1st Gear selected, will the clutch slip when using the kick starter? If it slips we could then repeat but with the clutch cable disconnected or the screw at the worm completely backed off. This may help pin-point where in the clutch system the slipping is confined to.

 

[Rasputin]

Just looking at your video. You mention screwing the adjuster in till it touches, then a quarter turn.
That should be a quarter turn back out, or anti-clockwise. There has to be free play in the pushrod, doesn’t need much. Your worm does look a little loose but that in itself shouldn’t be a problem. Hope it helps.

 

[5twins]

I wouldn't buy one of the new repops, they differ slightly from originals. The angle of the swirl has been changed a little. This may make for a slightly easier lever pull but it also doesn't move the pushrod in as much, and lack of clutch plate separation can be an issue on these. Also, since the gear swirl angle differs, neither of the new parts (male or female) can be interchanged with original ones, they just won't screw together. You do seem to have some excess play in your worm. Maybe packing it with grease will help with that.

If you want a back-up or replacement, I would recommend watching eBay for a used assembly. Yamaha changed the nylon material on the later worms. It's black in color and I think it's harder and more wear resistant than your earlier white nylon unit. I would shop for one of those. And you needn't limit yourself to 650 units either. The same female nylon part was used on other models too (XS360, 400, 500).

https://www.partzilla.com/product/yamaha/371-16396-00-00

 

[AussiXS]

I am a bit confused on this one. Are we saying the clutch is just slipping badly under load? This could just be a matter of old wornout clutch springs?? With the engine off and 1st Gear selected, will the clutch slip when using the kick starter? If it slips we could then repeat but with the clutch cable disconnected or the screw at the worm completely backed off. This may help pin-point where in the clutch system the slipping is confined to.

So in the previous installments I took apart and re greased the worm gear and all is well in there, no cracks etc. I am terrible at video and explaining what I mean haha, I will harder try next time. I loosen the nut, screw in, 1/6 counter clockwise, then lock the nut. I took apart the clutch and everything looked fine, re looking at the pictures (previous in thread), it might be worth resanding the steel plates and cleaning up the sides of the basket? The lever is a new one in the below link, its stock and all dims look good and the cable is in good condition and returns well.

Paul, I have replaced the springs so that cant be it. However, could you please elaborate on your tests you do? What am I looking out for? It slips under load, but now that I think back, it has slipped when I have it on the centerstand and slowly releasing clutch in first. I will confirm this tonight and do your above test and get back.

Also, Peanut, what is tang binding and how is it fixed?

https://www.geoffsxs.com.au/OpenCar...d=196&search=Clutch+Lever+(black)+Fits:+78-84

 

[650Skull]

From Here, http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical Info/improving.htm

After years of the power being rolled on and off, the tabs on the fibre plates can make indents on the dogs of the clutch basket. The severity of this is a good indicator of how hard the bike has been ridden and the worse it is, the more difficult engagement/disengagement will be as the uneven surface impedes the sliding action of the plates.

Clutch basket with severely worn dogs.

The only fix, aside from a new basket or at least a used one in better shape than the one you have, is to very carefully file the dogs smooth. However, only a whisker can be removed as too much will increase the clearance of the plates in the basket and give a "clunk" every time the throttle is opened or closed. Also, you must try to take the same amount off each dog so the load is still evenly shared by all the tabs and dogs.

Clutch basket with worn dogs filed smooth (or at least smoother than it was).

 

[peanut]

I took apart the clutch and everything looked fine,

Also, Peanut, what is tang binding and how is it fixed?

4

when you had the clutch apart did you put a vernier gauge on all the plates ??
Your clutch plates could be worn or the wrong thickness or wrong number of plates.

Are you certain the plates were put back in the correct order ?

Something very basic is wrong here ...you say everything checks out but clearly something is being overlooked here somewhere.

 

[AussiXS]

Paul Sutton mentioned testing, so I have tried what he said. I took the sparks out, tried to kick in gear and it pushes the bike forward (as expected). Then I put it in gear and held the clutch and it was no different, the clutch isn't disengaging. I then took the worm gear screw off and that didn't change a thing either, gears still activated. Here is link to my video of doing this.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UF8hzxsF8jwhl6Umpr9n4bcwYnoE3wzU

Does this help clear up a glaring mistake to you guys?

Peanut, I think you're right, there is an easy thing fix here that has gone astray.

 

[AussiXS]

OK, here is my clutch, its open! I do pull the clutch in and there isnt much movement in the plates, as you will see. So I thought maybe I have too many plate in the stack (I have seen another video of this been the case), well that wasnt the case, with one friction and one steel plate removed there is too much play in the basket, so I am meant to have 6 steels and 7 frictions.

As you can see with video 2, I take apart the basket. Does this all look normal? I ended up sanding the basket sides down so the plates can slide better. I am really perplexed with this. What do I need to buy/do to get this bloody thing going?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18IDGo_GZJc40OsBOx1xhjGb9UHNMJDnq

Video 2
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3tSQlhhBRz9WEp0Rm0ycHJKdlE

 

[peanut]

sorry Aussi I think maybe we are talking at cross purposes here .?

At first you said that the clutch was slipping ie doesn't engage
Now you say that the clutch doesn't disengage ?

OK I just watched your video and I think I now understand.

It lsounds like your clutch is not disengaging so that even with the clutch lever pulled in the engine is still driving the rear wheel through the clutch .
When you were doing your test you didn't actually need to use the kickstart because with the clutch still pulled in the engine was still turning over when you pushed the bike along.

That means your clutch plates are constantly engaged and your clutch mechanism is not working properly to separate the plates for some reason.
How you apparently managed to change into 1st gear with the clutch fully engaged and drive off is a mystery to me at the moment ?

Could you just confirm some facts for us first before we go any further. The answers are very important to help narrow down the problem2
1. What year is the engine ?
2. Do you have a 6 or 7 plate clutch fitted ?
3. Do you have a single long clutch push rod or two short push rods ?
4. how many ball bearings are fitted total between the clutch mushroom and the worm drive (including the ball inside the worm mechanism)
5.Have you checked that there is actually a ball bearing inside the worm mechanism ?
6. could we please have a picture of your worm drive as it is fitted in the cover

 

[peanut]

Your clutch cover is projecting too far in front of the basket so either you have too many plates fitted or you are using an incorrect assembly sequence or components

You seem to have an incorrect assembly sequence.
if you watch my video it will show you the complete correct sequence but here is a picture for quick reference.