Dead after 10 miles on highway

[gedti]

I was on a mission to make my longest trip on my newly built '79 bobber from Detroit to Lansing to get ready for the chop off in Toledo. The thing has been riding great for the past month on the side roads, time to take it on the highway. Other than horrible Michigan roads and lack of a windbreak the highway ride was great too until i got tho the exit. And here is where the problem is.

As i came to a stop at the end of the ramp the thing just decided to die. After an hour of letting it cool down and tearing it apart with my limited tools i found i wasn't getting a spark.

I got it home tested all wiring, coil, reg/rec, kill switch, head light, tail light, and charging system. All good. I tried hooking a battery up to the bike and follow the instructions to check pamco but to no avail. Is there a way to check the individual components of the pamco ignition with a multimeter?

I NEED HELP. What else could it be? This is what i have on the bike.
1979 motor
Pma and reg/rec from mikes xs
Pamco ignition with dual output Coil
Led lights
Kill switch (no key)
Kick only
Capacitor (no battery)

 

[retiredgentleman]

Your charging system is unbalanced. The PMA is producing 200 watts as you drive down the road, but your bike may be consuming only 100 to 120 watts. The rec/reg has to try to dissipate the excess 80 to 100 watts. The poor quality Chinese rec/reg just can't dissipate that extra power, so it gets very hot and the voltage to your ignition goes very high. The Pamco ignition has likely failed due to the extra high voltage.
PMA systems cause a lot of ignition failures. The stock alternator system does not cause ignition failures, because its always a balanced system. With the stock system, if your bike uses 100 watts, then the alternator only produces 100 watts.

Go back to the stock alternator system, and you won't have any more ignition failures.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi gedti,
I'm with retiredgentleman, the alleged upgrade to your bike's charging system was no such thing.
One step sideways and one step back is a better description.
But second-guessing your charging system choice won't get you back on the road again.
Your bike REALLY NEEDS a battery, substituting a capacitor ain't a smart idea.
Your "usual suspect" for cooking the Pamco is the bargain basement reg/rect, Use the "search" button to find a good one.
Most likely your Pamco is toast. Choose to replace it or to go back to points.
BTW, nice looking bike. Good luck with getting it to Toledo and success in the chop-off.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Your charging system is unbalanced. The PMA is producing 200 watts as you drive down the road, but your bike may be consuming only 100 to 120 watts. The rec/reg has to try to dissipate the excess 80 to 100 watts. The poor quality Chinese rec/reg just can't dissipate that extra power, so it gets very hot and the voltage to your ignition goes very high. The Pamco ignition has likely failed due to the extra high voltage.
PMA systems cause a lot of ignition failures. The stock alternator system does not cause ignition failures, because its always a balanced system. With the stock system, if your bike uses 100 watts, then the alternator only produces 100 watts.

Go back to the stock alternator system, and you won't have any more ignition failures.

You missed the part where he has a capacitor. So... That's not going to happen.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I was on a mission to make my longest trip on my newly built '79 bobber from Detroit to Lansing to get ready for the chop off in Toledo. The thing has been riding great for the past month on the side roads, time to take it on the highway. Other than horrible Michigan roads and lack of a windbreak the highway ride was great too until i got tho the exit. And here is where the problem is.

As i came to a stop at the end of the ramp the thing just decided to die. After an hour of letting it cool down and tearing it apart with my limited tools i found i wasn't getting a spark.

I got it home tested all wiring, coil, reg/rec, kill switch, head light, tail light, and charging system. All good. I tried hooking a battery up to the bike and follow the instructions to check pamco but to no avail. Is there a way to check the individual components of the pamco ignition with a multimeter?

I NEED HELP. What else could it be? This is what i have on the bike.
1979 motor
Pma and reg/rec from mikes xs
Pamco ignition with dual output Coil
Led lights
Kill switch (no key)
Kick only
Capacitor (no battery)

If you plugged the pamco up to a battery it should've ran.
Did you email Pamco about testing it with a multimeter? http://yamahaxs650.com/

 

[fredintoon]

You missed the part where he has a capacitor. So... That's not going to happen.

Hi BigJimmy,
I know, I know, and that's the sad thing.
I have just about given up hope that the PMA addicts will ever realize that the best use of a capacitor involves a good throwing arm and a river.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Hi BigJimmy,
I know, I know, and that's the sad thing.
I have just about given up hope that the PMA addicts will ever realize that the best use of a capacitor involves a good throwing arm and a river.

I'm a PMA guy, I also don't run a battery, but I pieced mine together before there were kits. It was cheap and easy to piece together. All thanks to MrRiggs and his help. It was also done before LED's became so cheap and accessible. I am not familiar with the output of a 200w kits from Mikes, so I cannot comment on that part.

 

[retiredgentleman]

You missed the part where he has a capacitor. So... That's not going to happen.

No, I didn't miss that he had a capacitor in lieu of a battery. My reading comprehension is quite good.
A PMA for these bikes is bad enough. Using a capacitor just makes it even more likely for the voltage to go very high and burn up the ignition. Using a battery may have absorbed some of the extra power, and stabilized the voltage.

My earlier post's suggestion was to get rid of the PMA stator, rotor, rec/reg unit and capacitor; and replace it with a stock alternator system, which means using an alternator stator, rotor, rectifier, regulator and a battery. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word "system".

 

[retiredgentleman]

If you plugged the pamco up to a battery it should've ran.
Did you email Pamco about testing it with a multimeter? http://yamahaxs650.com/

Connecting a battery to a burnt up Pamco, while on the side of the road would not work, when the Pamco is already dead.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

No, I didn't miss that he had a capacitor in lieu of a battery. My reading comprehension is quite good.
A PMA for these bikes is bad enough. Using a capacitor just makes it even more likely for the voltage to go very high and burn up the ignition. Using a battery may have absorbed some of the extra power, and stabilized the voltage.

My earlier post's suggestion was to get rid of the PMA stator, rotor, rec/reg unit and capacitor; and replace it with a stock alternator system, which means using an alternator stator, rotor, rectifier, regulator and a battery. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word "system".

No, you're clearly capable of reading the post, but you lack actual comprehension. By that, It's not likely to happen. Obviously, he set it up to eliminate the battery.

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "opinion" versus "help".

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Connecting a battery to a burnt up Pamco, while on the side of the road would not work, when the Pamco is already dead.

Proving my point right there RG. You're capable of reading....

I got it home tested all wiring, coil, reg/rec, kill switch, head light, tail light, and charging system. All good. I tried hooking a battery up to the bike and follow the instructions to check pamco but to no avail. Is there a way to check the individual components of the pamco ignition with a multimeter?

 

[retiredgentleman]

I'm a PMA guy, I also don't run a battery, but I pieced mine together before there were kits. It was cheap and easy to piece together. All thanks to MrRiggs and his help. It was also done before LED's became so cheap and accessible. I am not familiar with the output of a 200w kits from Mikes, so I cannot comment on that part.

Yes, MrRiggs did it right. He used high quality Japanese parts, Nippon Denso IIRC. But all these young lads are buying poor quality Chinese PMA kits from Mikesxs, HHB, TCbros and other aftermarket sellers. They are buying junk and end up breaking down on the road quite often.

If the young lads bought Japanese or German parts, they would have a much better chance of having a reliable charging system that would not leave them stranded on the side of the road.

Also , if guys strip their bike down so as to consume only low wattage of maybe 100 to 120 watts, using LEDs and other means, they really need to buy a PMA that only generates in the 120 to 130 range. Of course most buyers don't understand the concept of having a balanced electrical system.

This has been going on for years........................young lads getting screwed by aftermarket sellers.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Yes, MrRiggs did it right. He used high quality Japanese parts, Nippon Denso IIRC. But all these young lads are buying poor quality Chinese PMA kits from Mikesxs, HHB, TCbros and other aftermarket sellers. They are buying junk and end up breaking down on the road quite often.

If the young lads bought Japanese or German parts, they would have a much better chance of having a reliable charging system that would not leave then stranded on the side of the road.

Also , if guys strip their bike down so as to consume only low wattage of maybe 100 to 120 watts, using LEDs and other means, they really need to buy a PMA that only generates in the 120 to 130 range. Of course most buyers don't understand the concept of having a balanced electrical system.

This has been going on for years........................young lads getting screwed by aftermarket sellers.

Yes, once again. I know nothing of the 200w systems that these guys are selling. I agree that he could be doing more to balance the charging system. Like, throwing in a high powered Non-LED headlight after he gets everything else sorted out. However, just telling the guy to use a stock charging system is pretty much out of the question at this point. So, lets work more on helping him with what he has, instead of what he doesn't.

Gedti, I also see that your stator is mounted on the downtube. I have mine mounted on my front motor mount, which is where a lot of stators are mounted for cooling purposes. Those fins on the stator are to give it more surface area to be air cooled just like your engine. The more air you can get on them when running, the better. Might also be something to pursue.

 

[retiredgentleman]

I had to go and put on a pair of safety glasses.....................I'm getting poked in the eye so much

Yes, I think we get it BigJ..................you're a PMA and capacitor lover and will be for life.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I had to go and put on a pair of safety glasses.....................I'm getting poked in the eye so much

Yes, I think we get it BigJ..................you're a PMA and capacitor lover and will be for life.

No worries RG. It's all in good fun. I don't really mean anything by it. Except that you're mostly wasting your time when a guy has a capacitor. I just know what would have gone through my head then and I'm sure it wouldn't have been: "Ok, let me put all of the stuff I just pulled off of the bike back on... I'll get right on that"

I'm a do something different lover and will be for life. When I did mine in my 20's (2009-2010) not many guys were doing it.

We get it, you're a purist. I love a good clean resto as much as the next guy, but I like different more. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi BigJimmy,
the "I got it home" implied to me that he fetched it in a pickup truck.
I recommended a "least cost" fix in post #3 that used all of the aftermarket hardware that wasn't fried.
The suggested battery upgrade was only a recommended option.
And yeah, capacitors can sub in for batteries so long as you are willing to ignore all of the capacitor's drawbacks.
(Ain't gonna list 'em here because you already know what they are.)
But WTF kinda "stator" is fitted to the OP's frame tube and your front motor mount?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Quote;
" However, just telling the guy to use a stock charging system is pretty much out of the question at this point."
Why do you say that? Maybe he still has the stock alternator, and maybe it just needs some new brushes. His old rectifier and regulator may also still be working. However, he could go with a new inexpensive 3 phase rectifier and a nos automotive VR-115 regulator. Of course add a new battery.

If he plans to stay with the minimum electrical components, LEDs etc. ,the stock charging system is the best and likely least expensive option.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Hi BigJimmy,
the "I got it home" implied to me that he fetched it in a pickup truck.
I recommended a "least cost" fix in post #3 that used all of the aftermarket hardware that wasn't fried.
The suggested battery upgrade was only a recommended option.
And yeah, capacitors can sub in for batteries so long as you are willing to ignore all of the capacitor's drawbacks.
(Ain't gonna list 'em here because you already know what they are.)
But WTF kinda "stator" is fitted to the OP's frame tube and your front motor mount?

I don't disagree with the got it home part. My point was that he wasn't hooking a pamco up on the side of the road.

I also agree, that is his least expensive option.

Also agreed on the capacitor, there are drawbacks. Weight and someone asking "where's your battery?" being another.

As to my stator, I believe mine is from a vf500, if I remember correctly. I know my stator and rotor are matching. His is the MikesXS stator. So no telling.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Quote;
" However, just telling the guy to use a stock charging system is pretty much out of the question at this point."
Why do you say that? Maybe he still has the stock alternator, and maybe it just needs some new brushes. His old rectifier and regulator may also still be working. However, he could go with a new inexpensive 3 phase rectifier and a nos automotive VR-115 regulator. Of course add a new battery.

If he plans to stay with the minimum electrical components, LEDs etc. ,the stock charging system is the best and likely least expensive option.

That's if he wants to run a battery. I've heard of guys running really small batteries on the PMA. Not sure what the word is on them. I'd even be inclined to do something like that to smooth out the spikes.

I will tell you though, if Morris Magneto made a 277 ignition, I would definitely be interested. With that, even if the charging system died, you're just out the lights. Still able to run, but that's the only reason I would be interested. Also, they are really, really proud of them.

 

[650Skull]

gedti, Do not run LED lights............Run Halogen, incandescent or any thing that will burn power and should be on at all times when the bike is running.

By running LED's, thats another 77 watts the reg/rect had to burn off as heat, almost the same amount again, as it is already burning off.

Move the Reg/Rect to the horn area .......... it can be angled so the air is directed onto the motor, good for both unit and airflow.

What damage has been done to the components? Reg/Rect/ Pamco or coils, all these need to be tested. Lots of info in the Tech Menu, Pamco and PMA threads and do a search, using, PMA reg/rect

Hugh also now sells a Moffit Reg/Rect that is supposed to handle the extra heat, also states on his site not to run LED's. He found the extra load was the major contributor causing the Regulator part of the Reg/Rect to burn out.

Replacing LED's with Helogen would mean the older cheaper, Reg/Rect would/should do the job