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Electronic Ignition for xs650

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by paul650cn, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Thank you Signal. I may get to try this to day. I meant to mention that if buying from Ignitech it is best to pay the extra approximately £10 to get the programmable version so that any little problems can be addressed e.g. kick back at startup.
     
    Jim and gggGary like this.
  2. Team Junk

    Team Junk XS650 Guru XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Put a timing light on it and see where the spark is actually happening on the timing marks.
     
  3. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Here is what I found while tidying up the wiring. I noticed the choke cable was tight. So I solved that problem and then tried starting the bike and surprise! surprise! Everything worked correctly. So I got dressed and off for a 15 mile ride to see how Ignitech performed. Acceleration was very smooth and a little bit quicker low down. The bike was very quiet up around 60 - 70 mph and deceleration was very smooth and quiet. Good plug n play system.

    Next step is to replace the intake pressure sensor. The stock sensor is no longer available and 32 years old but since I bought the programmable TCIP4 I can swap the old out for a new. I'll need to buy one that has easily obtained Pressure v Voltage data to re-programming.
     
    Signal, Jim, GLJ and 1 other person like this.
  4. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Back to that kick back issue. The Virago has always had bit of a kick back issue during starting, but it was far worse when I used the TCIP4 as mentioned previously. I found I could not retard the timing at startup so Emailed IGNITECH. They asked for further information from me then sent me a new program to address the issue with kick back. The new program contains the following:

    "Lower advance at start (%) - this option delayed starting advance upon angle. This angle is determined as % part of virtual lobe. Valid only for starting speed (speed less than 500 RPM). This option can be used especially for large volume single-cylinder engines to prevent kick-back when starting el. starter."

    I am not sure what it all means but think it switches the ignition on once the starter has spun up the engine to a certain rpm. I loaded the program which took all of 5 minutes. Startup now sounds a little different and the engine fires up immediately without kick back for 4/4 tries on a cold engine. I hope the issue is solved. In a week I will give IGNITECH feedback on the new program.

    Finally the Point - IGNITECH gave me very good customer support :cheers:
     
    timbeck, gggGary and GLJ like this.
  5. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Just some data/ideas for future reference: With programmable ignition the option exists for the XS650 to add a pressure sensor across the two carburetor vacuum barbs to give better controlled ignition. IGNITECH sells such a sensor called an 82051 and it looks like the Meat and Doria 82051:
    Pressure.jpg
    This is widely available and an equivalent is manufactured by many companies:

    BOSCH : F00099P003, AUTLOG : AS4913, CSV electronic parts : CSP9201,
    DELPHI : PS10102, DT Spare Parts : 12.24220, EFI Automotive : 291005,
    EPS : 1.993.003, ERA : 550080, ERA : 550080A, FACET : 10.3003,
    FAST : FT54258, FEBI BILSTEIN : 36858, FISPA : 84.201, HELLA : 6PP 009 400-211,
    HERTHBUSS ELPARTS : 70670007, HITACHI : 138228, HOFFER : 7472051,
    KW : 493 003, LUCAS : SEB177, MAGNETI MARELLI : 215810001604,
    MEAT DORIA : 82051, METZGER : 0906038, MOTAQUIP : LVPA203, MTE-THOMSON : 7182,
    NGK : 96249, SEIM : MAP110, SIDAT : 84.201, SMPE : 16802, SMPE : EMS003,
    SMPE : LMS002
     
    gggGary likes this.
  6. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    is that only a vacume sensor, or is it cappable of reading boost too?

    and Ive been super busy with surviving lol, and have not had the brain power to spare so Paul, forgive me if i seem outa touch with the tread, and the new BOX you bought, but I thought that this box was completely programable with the "TUNER" that I tried to download, and that you can make these changes your discussing here yourself with a laptop, that was the entire reason I wanted to download there programmer, so I could see just what varibles they gave you acsses to change or adjust, and again again the reason i asked the first question, was I really want to build a boosted xs650, but will need timing control at diferent levels of boost .. so if that sensor and there programer, aloows that im in like flin,
     
  7. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Billy, on the Ignitech website they sell sensors going up to 3Bar. I have seen another forum comment stating they used an Ignitech Unit on a turbo bike. You are best to email Ignitech and give them your specification and let them confirm the details with you. If you want I will contact them, but I do not know your specification so let me know. Let me know if you want me to contact them.

    My comment regarding the XS650 is in reference to the pressure/vacuum sensor. I said pressure because the software uses absolute pressure, not vacuum. The program has many variables to change and play with. You need to download the TCIP4 Version 96. Your computer will run it, just answer Yes when the computer asks for permission to make changes. The software is for the PC, I do not think a MAC OS version exists.

    I could have made the change to the settings to stop kick back but it was hidden and you would have to be in the know to have found it. It was easier with my very limited experience to seek their help.

    Here is a view of the advance map for my Virago using Pressure and RPM:

    Virago.jpg

    The advance is greatest at low pressure (i.e. throttle closed so pressure below atmospheric). At high pressure (i.e. throttle fully open so pressure closer to atmospheric) the the contour with increasing rpm is what we normally imagine an advance curve to look like.

    The contour map is created from the following curves where all points can be adjusted by dragging with the mouse or direct input to an Excel looking matrix:

    Lines.jpg

    If we remove the pressure variable then we get a typical basic advance curve:

    Timming.jpg

    I hope this gives some additional insight to the Ignitech system. I have just shown pressure, rpm and advance angles but there are loads of other variables to play with. You may notice at the bottom of the graphs is a setting to control each cylinder's advance independently.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    Grimly, TwoManyXS1Bs and gggGary like this.
  8. gggGary

    gggGary I'm listening, change my mind XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Hmm must of mentioned this elsewhere but I put a tytronics I got off eBay last year into WJL and it lasted about 10 miles and puked (both sides) threw the points back in and bike did about another 1000 miles this year, um anyways even though a lot of time had passed I contacted tyronics and after a bit of back and forth, they sent a replacement, no charge. The replacement is like Billy's, has the two LEDs. I tossed it in Zall using the stock two coil set up, which was super easy, timed and off to the races. Made it 50 miles and.....


    I sold Zall. LOL So it lasted as long as the bike. Till the details are worked out on the gonzo boxes, for points motors the Tytronic gets my vote for a simple points replacement ignition. I'd use one again. The only change I needed to make was a simple Y jumper wire to send +12 power from the coil feed to the electronics, I also removed the condensers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  9. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    So Gary, you used the Tytronics with one dual output 3 ohm coil?

    I haven't tried my Tytronics yet. The bike and parts are covered with sheets while I am using the garage to make sawdust while building my 3rd garage/illegal sized shed. Even with a HOA I think I'm going to get away with it. 12' x 16', previously poured foundation, poured cement floor. My county and HOA are very strict about the building code. A shed that size with a foundation is not allowed in my area. It would pass a building inspection if the Nazi's declare it a "building" instead of a shed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  10. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    the tytronics in my bobber has gone steady since I got it and made the instal video, sorry to hear yours went puke, I wonder if the old version had an ishue that was resolved, I acualy love mine
     
  11. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    I like the idea of using a y jumper so that the Hot wire feeding the coils also heats up the tyronics, ALTHO it spacificaly says in the cineese directions not to do that that it may cause the ignition to die.... Gary did yours come with the chineese/english "chinlesh" directions?

    I still have another one is someone wants one...
     
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  12. gggGary

    gggGary I'm listening, change my mind XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    The tyronic needs to get +12 from somewhere. Don't think mine had any instructions, I came back here and followed yours.
     
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  13. gggGary

    gggGary I'm listening, change my mind XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    no just plugged into the two stock coils from the points set up, and removed the condensers.
     
    mrtwowheel likes this.
  14. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    i was just watching my video to see if I had mentioned it, its wierd to listen to myself give directions lol, but yeah I mentioned it, it says in the directions and in the video that tyronics says not to use the 12v to the coils, but yes it definatly does need 12v from somewher,im not smart enuf to know why the 12v that heats up the coils would be diferent from a dedicated 12v from ignition switch??? seems like they would be the same thing, but tyrtronics does say NO!NO! lol
     
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  15. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    weere all still waiting for someone to try using the dual output coil, but I belive it will not work due to the tryronics "overlap" it has
     
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  16. gggGary

    gggGary I'm listening, change my mind XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    No electronics guy am I but coils can and do throw off big electric "Shockwaves" when the field collapses. Maybe why that first set puked, hmm, Billy where are them directions?
     
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  17. billy icon

    billy icon test pilot,gunnie pig, and all around experiment

    pm me Ill mail you a copy, or I can try and take a photo of them and send you that
     
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  18. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    Thanks for the update about your Tytronics Billy. I'm still going to risk the price of the Tytronics to see if it works with a single dual output 3 ohm coil.
     
    Paul Sutton and gggGary like this.
  19. gggGary

    gggGary I'm listening, change my mind XS650.com Supporter Top Contributor

    Made the "required" Tytronics wiring change, there was an extra bullet connector available in the bucket on the Brown wire after the iggy switch.
    Tip; used some weed whip line to fish and pull the wire through the LH wire loom into the bucket. :thumbsup:

    in this pic red wire into 2 brown connector. See that rubbed bare spot on one brown wire?
    20201001_102154.jpg
    weed whip line is red n white, easily pushed through sleeve with just a little manipulation, taped on red wire used to feed tytronics and pulled it through.
    20201001_100637.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  20. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    Ah, fishing with weed whack wire, clever.
     
    Paul Sutton, MaxPete, Jim and 2 others like this.

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