Engine stops suddenly, ignition issues?

[peanut]

The reason i asked the question about your lights is because it would be a diagnostic test for those of us that cannot see and test your bike
'The connections seem good. ........................' what kind of test is a 'seem good ' ?
Also a bad connection wouldn’t be “fixed” by power cycling. .............yes it could

How do you think caps could cause sudden random shutdowns of the ignition system ????

You obviously know exactly what it is not and you are convinced that it is the Boyer at fault ,.....despite applying zero logic, zero testing or troubleshooting so go ahead and buy a replacement ignition system.

What are you going to buy next if that doesn't cure the fault ?

 

[gggGary]

The reason i asked the question about your lights is because it would be a diagnostic test for those of us that cannot see and test your bike
'The connections seem good. ........................' what kind of test is a 'seem good ' ?
Also a bad connection wouldn’t be “fixed” by power cycling. .............yes it could

How do you think caps could cause sudden random shutdowns of the ignition system ????

You obviously know exactly what it is not and you are convinced that it is the Boyer at fault ,.....despite applying zero logic, zero testing or troubleshooting so go ahead and buy a replacement ignition system.

What are you going to buy next if that doesn't cure the fault ?

Don't sugar coat it Peanut tell em what you think. But someone here quotes an old gggism in their siggy, " you can't just buy and spend your way to a good running XS you'll go broke first."

 

[chrispunk]

So after saying that Boyer knows his shit so much it couldn’t possibly be broken you’ll dismiss him when he say on his site the caps could cause the Issue?

 

[kevski]

Have you recently changed plugs, i ask because if you are running resistor caps with resistor plugs you will get issues with ignition, make sure you don't have resistor plugs.

If you suspect the Boyer igniter give them a call, i used to live 4 miles away from them and if i wanted to fit one of their systems i would go there, super helpful only around 6 staff including the dog and baby in the pram, a proper cottage industry and a great success story.

 

[chrispunk]

I’ve got none resistor plugs. I have just stuck some 5ohm resistor caps on now. Hopefully have time to take it for a ride on tuesday. If that’s not don’t it I’ll give them a call.

 

[650Skull]

I don't know about these units. maybe these will help

Has a diagnostic Test been done...........this link gives a list of, and how to.
http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/BoyerTroubleShooting.htm

There was a post relating to a common fault with Boyers, apparently the plates have been known to warp........I don't know the symptoms if they do but a check of the plate can't do any harm.......

 

[peanut]

So after saying that Boyer knows his shit so much it couldn’t possibly be broken you’ll dismiss him when he say on his site the caps could cause the Issue?

where did I say that the Boyer couldn't possibly be at fault ????????


You asked for advice so I made a few sensible suggestions

You gave us absolutely no information about your bike or what work you've done on it or general condition etc ?........

After I suggested that you check the battery , ignition switch and fuses........ you then tell us 'oh they are all new so it can't be those'! ??

Heres a few things you might bear in mind about DIY repair maintenance and upgrade work on classic vehicles today...

1. you cannot trust components just because they are brand new, most of it is rubbish from Asia that hasn't been tested or passed any quality control standards.
2. Always check everything systematically and leave nothing out even if you checked once already.
3. Don't buy new components at random and replace components until you find a fix ....Diagnose the fault and TEST TEST TEST !
4. When people take the time and trouble to respond to your request for help and advice ...be nice thank them for their advice even if you think its rubbish ...that way the next time you need advice people will be more likely to respond to your request for help.
You can click on the thumbs up if you can't be bothered to message them in the tread

 

[650Skull]

Have you recently changed plugs, i ask because if you are running resistor caps with resistor plugs you will get issues with ignition, make sure you don't have resistor plugs.
If you suspect the Boyer igniter give them a call, i used to live 4 miles away from them and if i wanted to fit one of their systems i would go there, super helpful only around 6 staff including the dog and baby in the pram, a proper cottage industry and a great success story.

Cant have resister plugs and caps......either one or the other

Reading back over this thread it seems the symptoms described has been the ignition box in 2 cases............ Reading the Boyer "Fault finding/Technical help" the box is triggered when the ignition key is first turned on...........If the box has a fault, as per Griz and Niles, Switching the key/ignition off then back on seems to re-trigger the ignition box..............If all the other tests have been done and test good then a faulty box would seem the logical conclusion.

Its difficult to recommend spending money on new components, especially when i have had no experience with these units..........Shame someone close who has a working unit can't help you out by swapping the box to test it.

If your confident all other avenues have been exhausted, on the Boyer site they will test the unit for a fee.........

 

[grizld1]

When the Boyer timing plate warps it becomes concave and the rotor starts to hit the solder pads on the back of the plate. The result I experienced was misfire at ~6000 rpm. Another common source of grief is the Gill coil supplied with the Micro Power kit. It doesn't even make a good paperweight. Ignition failure immediately restored by cycling the switch off and on can also indicate a bad pickup coil; the ohm meter is your friend here. Unless you have access to a professional electronics bench and the expertise to use it, you'll only identify a bad igniter box by eliminating other sources of trouble and swapping in another box.

 

[peanut]

When the Boyer timing plate warps it becomes concave and the rotor starts to hit the solder pads on the back of the plate. The result I experienced was misfire at ~6000 rpm. .

Don't suppose you have a piccy ? serious discussion ok.. I would be genuinely interested to know which Boyer model you had the problem with

I am trying to see how the pcb could have warped so much that the pickups would hit the underside of the pcb ?
I can only go by the Micro Digital unit I have fitted to mine but the amount of pcb that isn't supported by the 2x large diameter spacing tubes is only about 10mm each side of the pcb at most ?

I can't see how or where the pcb could have warped sufficiently to collide with the rotor ...

I could see how the locktite that secures the rotor could possibly degrade and allow the rotor to loosen on the shaft with vibration or maybe the lock nut loosen at the other end which would allow some float on the rotor shaft .

I haven't managed to find a decent image yet that shows the relationship of the various parts.

The reason I didn't immediately suspect a fault with Chris's Boyer is that we are told that the engine starts and runs faultlessly but then cuts out completely apparently randomly ?
that suggests to me either a temperature related issue or a poor contact or connection somewhere.

 

[kevski]

Cant have resister plugs and caps......either one or the other

.........

 

[kevski]

That's what i said.

Cant have resister plugs and caps......either one or the other

Reading back over this thread it seems the symptoms described has been the ignition box in 2 cases............ Reading the Boyer "Fault finding/Technical help" the box is triggered when the ignition key is first turned on...........If the box has a fault, as per Griz and Niles, Switching the key/ignition off then back on seems to re-trigger the ignition box..............If all the other tests have been done and test good then a faulty box would seem the logical conclusion.

Its difficult to recommend spending money on new components, especially when i have had no experience with these units..........Shame someone close who has a working unit can't help you out by swapping the box to test it.

If your confident all other avenues have been exhausted, on the Boyer site they will test the unit for a fee.........

That's what i already said.

 

[grizld1]

Sorry, didn't take pics, but the distortion of the plate and the contact marks on the solder pads were obvious, and replacement eliminated the issue. No, the rotor was not loose, and yes, I've used Loctite on the trigger on every one of the half dozen or so Boyer installations I've done over the years.The model was Micro Digital, but that's pretty much irrelevant, as the same plate is used in the later Micro Power system, as you'd know if you had more experience. I had one new timing plate and one salvage plate in the stash, and resolved the warping issue by cutting the pickup coils off the salvage unit and cementing it to the good unit with epoxy for reinforcement. Later I installed a Probe ignition, which is better designed in every way (unfortunately it seems that guys were unwilling to pay for quality, and Mark Whitebook discontinued the Probe ignition a couple of years ago). You've done exactly one Boyer installation and it apparently worked well for you. Congratulations. Please realize that others' experience may not replicate your single sample.

 

[650Skull]

That's what i said.


That's what i already said.

Yea you did..........i was finishing off the last part of the sentence...........sounded like there was a one, not either or. Post #24........Not being a dick

 

[aldo5468]

Don't suppose you have a piccy ? serious discussion ok.. I would be genuinely interested to know which Boyer model you had the problem with

I am trying to see how the pcb could have warped so much that the pickups would hit the underside of the pcb ?
I can only go by the Micro Digital unit I have fitted to mine but the amount of pcb that isn't supported by the 2x large diameter spacing tubes is only about 10mm each side of the pcb at most ?

I can't see how or where the pcb could have warped sufficiently to collide with the rotor ...

I could see how the locktite that secures the rotor could possibly degrade and allow the rotor to loosen on the shaft with vibration or maybe the lock nut loosen at the other end which would allow some float on the rotor shaft .

I haven't managed to find a decent image yet that shows the relationship of the various parts.

The reason I didn't immediately suspect a fault with Chris's Boyer is that we are told that the engine starts and runs faultlessly but then cuts out completely apparently randomly ?
that suggests to me either a temperature related issue or a poor contact or connection somewhere.

It has been my experience that a BB system is sensitive to low voltage - I don't know what minimum voltage it needs to work, but if it doesn't get it for even a split second, the engine dies. In my case, it was a battery going bad that I didn't pick up on as quickly as I should have. On the surface, it seemed to be a fault with the Micro Digital unit, but that turned out not to be the case at all.

 

[grizld1]

Yes indeed, the BB ignition needs clean, strong power. Don't know what the cutoff is either, but if power is just a little bit down, the ignition won't advance.

 

[650Skull]

Chrispunk, You may be interested in these posts........
Boyer........It does seem the XS650 using the BB Ignition can be problematic.....This can also be due to fluctuations within the charging system that is common to XS650's
https://www.xs650.com/threads/boyer-bransden-igniton-problems.21138/

2012; Post #6 Mentions the warping of the plate and posts the Electrical limitations figures for the Box
https://www.xs650.com/threads/what-ignitions-are-out-there.95/

2015; Post #6
http://www.xs650.com/threads/electronic-ignition-options.43897/

The reason the Probe failed to survive was presumably due to it not being a well produced, reliable product and had/s no established technical product support unlike the Boyer products

I was looking into getting a Probe Ignition, i thought they were a bit expensive especially compared to the Pamco. In 2015 the probe was $399 US when a Basic pamco was $102...........With an E-Advancer, (new to the market), and all the bits and pieces the Pamco E-Advance was around and over the $300 mark, so this made the probe cost effective....

What the probe did have was the ability to tune the module for Idle speed, alter the Advance, and had a rev limiter which appealed to me. Looked to long, when i decided to buy one, (after extensive research with no negatives), the company had just closed... What they did say was they had enough stock to fulfill all warranties for any probe Ignition they had sold that was still under warranty and they would fulfill all existing warranties for their ignition sold up to the date of closure..............I think this would cover the technical support claim. or lack of.......

As to it not being a well produced product, i could not find any information, (in reviews or posts), that raised any issues with reliability...........
Probe Engineering
https://www.xs650.org.au/Technical Info/Ignition.htm
https://www.xs650.com/threads/what-ignitions-are-out-there.95/
Posts #6-#8
http://www.xs650.com/threads/electronic-ignition-options.43897/

An old installation sheet