Ethanol as a Green Fuel? Yeah... Not So Much Apparently

[Jim]

China is also the worlds largest producer of renewable energy. Producing twice as much as the next highest nation... the US.

China's energy plans for the next decade are fluid. Currently, yes... they are building a shitload of new coal plants. On the positive side, China recently (last year?) made the commitment to stop funding construction of coal plants in other countries. China's banks are already making good on that commitment.
What they haven't said is will they stop their construction of coal plants in other countries (funded by others). And will they slow construction in their own country. I suspect they will.
China is currently the worlds largest importer of coal. That makes them energy dependent.... makes them susceptible to the geopolitics of the nations they import from... and they don't want that. Means that things like human rights can affect their energy source.
China is the leader in renewable energy. I'd expect them to stay that way for the foreseeable future.... maybe even gain ground. Not for any sense of a "climate conscience"... or it being the right thing to do, but more because of not wanting to be energy dependent.

 

[Kevin Werner]

It would be nice if it pans out that way...

 

[FLEA]

This is from an old article. 2006............makes the question of, "why continue with an inefficient product", all the more important.

https://grist.org/article/biofuel-some-numbers/

For net energy yield, ethanol from sugarcane in Brazil is in a class all by itself, yielding over 8 units of energy for each unit invested in cane production and ethanol distillation. Once the sugary syrup is removed from the cane, the fibrous remainder, bagasse, is burned to provide the heat needed for distillation, eliminating the need for an additional external energy source.

U.S. corn-based ethanol, which relies largely on natural gas for distillation energy, comes in a distant third in net energy efficiency, yielding only 1.5 units of energy for each energy unit used.

this is just a bit of a sideline on the suger cane , couple of yrs ago there was a write up bragging about the sugar mill here on the table lands , they had imported a lot of cactus (same one the make taquiler out of) from mexico to grow for fuel , they burn the cane trash to make electricity to run the mill but some times they dont have enough trash ... they were boasting that the test area plants needed no watering and ea plant produced 600 plantlings and had no local pests ...... and the GOV let them do this .. can you imagine this cactus getting away and it will , aust had enough trouble getting rid of the prickly pear and that took years and a introduced insect ... pure madness .. havnt heard since if they did the large plantings that they had planned

 

[Kevin Werner]

this is just a bit of a sideline on the suger cane , couple of yrs ago there was a write up bragging about the sugar mill here on the table lands , they had imported a lot of cactus (same one the make taquiler out of) from mexico to grow for fuel , they burn the cane trash to make electricity to run the mill but some times they dont have enough trash ... they were boasting that the test area plants needed no watering and ea plant produced 600 plantlings and had no local pests ...... and the GOV let them do this .. can you imagine this cactus getting away and it will , aust had enough trouble getting rid of the prickly pear and that took years and a introduced insect ... pure madness .. havnt heard since if they did the large plantings that they had planned

It is kind of difficult to grow sugar cane in most of the US, Europe, USSR, China, Canada, Mongolia, Stockholm, Helsinki, Hobart or Worchestershire...

 

[650Skull]

It is kind of difficult to grow sugar cane in most of the US, Europe, USSR, China, Canada, Mongolia, Stockholm, Helsinki, Hobart or Worchestershire...

Using sugarcane for ethanol saves your teeth.........

My point is, and to make it completely carbon neutral is to stop producing sugar and convert the cane land to producing ethanol. Practical, probably not, but if it did happen then no more land needs to be cleared.

maybe you guys in Worchestershire, just keep making that source for our barbecues, eating all those fart making machines. That way they are contributing heaps.

Clearing land, (deforestation), is a major contributor to global warming. The more we loose our trees, the hotter the land gets, rainwater run off speeds up erosion and clogs up rivers, alters the balance of rain water in the ocean along the coast affecting fish stock, their habitat is altered by the fresh water and soil pollution. The fresh water also alters the currents and water temperature.

Warmer climate is causing us to have super fires, that are outside of the average cycle of carbon release and uptake. The trees take longer to recover and in places they are quickly losing the ability to recover.

https://www.tonerbuzz.com/blog/deforestation-facts-and-statistics/

Can be peer reviewed by using all the links at the bottom that were used to compile this article

 

[nj1639]

Converting foodstuffs into energy is idiocy.

 

[650Skull]

Converting foodstuffs into energy is idiocy.

Suger cause teeth to rot
Suger causes diabetes
Suger causes angina

Suger clogs up hospitals with diseases directly related to its use

Using a ready available source with infrastructure in place that is self sufficient in energy use, using its own byproduct to fire and run the factories/mills to create Ethanol from sugarcane with a conversion rate of 1 part of energy used to making 8 parts of energy, is more efficient and less destructive environmentally and economically than using gas removed from the ground, often by fracking.......... fracking is known to cause earthquakes, pollutes underground water reserves has a highly poisonous waste byproduct and is cost heavy for the return..........Fracking gas is used to fire the mills to convert corn to ethanol............I unit of energy used to create 1.5 units of energy. Is economically unsustainable.

Use what we have economically till we find that serf perpetuation energy source

 

[Kevin Werner]

Trying to be completely neutral, that is lots of revs and no forward motion, , 70%+ surface of the earth is covered in the most incredibly biodiverse area called ocean whose plant life dwarfs a few forests and fields, cows and chicken farms.

 

[Jim]

Trying to be completely neutral, that is lots of revs and no forward motion, , 70%+ surface of the earth is covered in the most incredibly biodiverse area called ocean whose plant life dwarfs a few forests and fields, cows and chicken farms.

And for eons the oceans have been part of a delicate balance that gives us the "goldilocks" zone... neither too hot or cold... just right. Oceans can't "compensate" for an imbalance in that equation when they're already factored in as "part of" that balance.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Yes, but oceans are 70%+ (80%?) of the balance. As they warm fractions of a degree phytoplancton et al reproduction grows exponentially capturing carbon in the skelatol remains that sink to the ocean floor recapturing excess carbon.

 

[Jim]

Yes, but oceans are 70%+ (80%?) of the balance. As they warm fractions of a degree phytoplancton et al reproduction grows exponentially capturing carbon in the skelatol remains that sink to the ocean floor recapturing excess carbon.

So just so we're clear, it's your contention that the oceans can compensate for the increased carbon in the air? If that's the case, why haven't they?

 

[Kevin Werner]

No, the oceans react. I did not say compensate. Perhaps a dampening effect. But also, as in all systems, the biggest system is the slowest to react. My bigger point is/was most first world countries are in a carbon reduction phase and that it might be really tough to throttle 3rd world economies, and as a political aside (staying away from politics) can or should we or anybody interfere? (I will agree to leave that alone as a political discussion we really don't want on an XS forum because nibbling around the edges ends up with us taking a bite out of the middle.)

 

[Jim]

No, the oceans react. I did not say compensate. Perhaps a dampening effect.

I'm not seeing a dampening effect. At least, not one that's having any affect on ppm of Co2.

My bigger point is/was most first world countries are in a carbon reduction phase and....

Then disregard your ocean comments?

... and yes, let's leave (domestic) politics out of this conversation. We can't really have a discussion on energy that affects the world without considering the global politics. Let's just keep it confined to the discussion of energy.

 

[650Skull]

Trying to be completely neutral, that is lots of revs and no forward motion, , 70%+ surface of the earth is covered in the most incredibly biodiverse area called ocean whose plant life dwarfs a few forests and fields, cows and chicken farms.

The BBC green earth series had a really good episode on aquatic plants. They are dying because of pollution and warming oceans and the oxygen they produce and carbon they absorb as part of the cycle is missing.

The great barrier reef is stressed. Scientist are now admitting we are at, and some say we are over, the tipping point. Usually with their reservation with their public uttering's, they are behind the eight ball, so if thet are saying we are at that point................where are we really

 

[xjwmx]

Carbon = manufacturing. That's the reason for the sometimes U.S. aversion to international agreements that give China a handicap. If China can produce 30% of the world's carbon but the U.S. is allowed only 15%, then the race is fixed and China is already the winner. International climate agreements are the economic brake and accelerator and ultimately determine which way of life dominates globally. Don't fall for the message that the aversion is just a bunch of greedy pigs bent on destroying the environment...

 

[Kevin Werner]

Not dismissing the Great barrier reef or any other reef. They seem to be close where people live. People seem to be bad for habitats around those living people. The vast oceans contain most of the life forms on this planet. There are seven or eight big islands on this planet of water, each inhabited with dirty little creatures called human.

 

[Grimly]

It is kind of difficult to grow sugar cane in most of the US, Europe, USSR, China, Canada, Mongolia, Stockholm, Helsinki, Hobart or Worchestershire...

Aha, but the Irish Sugar Beet industry was thriving (basically root veggies grown for their sugar content) until it became uneconomic due to heavy subsidies being given to sugar producers in other parts of Europe. The amount of Irish sugar was staggering. Probably not enough to fuel the country, but if it were still being done, it would contribute to the Green Balance or some such nonsense.
Anyway, as it stands now, hardly any sugar beet is grown because all the processing factories were closed down.
I used to consume Irish sugar made from beet in my tea, coffee and cooking, and it was absolutely right up there with the best refined sugar from anywhere else.

 

[FLEA]

Aha, but the Irish Sugar Beet industry was thriving (basically root veggies grown for their sugar content) until it became uneconomic due to heavy subsidies being given to sugar producers in other parts of Europe. The amount of Irish sugar was staggering. Probably not enough to fuel the country, but if it were still being done, it would contribute to the Green Balance or some such nonsense.
Anyway, as it stands now, hardly any sugar beet is grown because all the processing factories were closed down.
I used to consume Irish sugar made from beet in my tea, coffee and cooking, and it was absolutely right up there with the best refined sugar from anywhere else.

out of curiosity , what did beet sugar compare with looks and taste wise , white sugar / brown sugar / raw sugar etc etc

 

[RC4MAN]

Soylent Green

 

[Grimly]

out of curiosity , what did beet sugar compare with looks and taste wise , white sugar / brown sugar / raw sugar etc etc

Indistinguishable from ordinary refined white sugar.