Expanded charging system guide (In progress)

[Quinn]

oh I forgot to mention... I’m getting no voltage readings directly from the bolts/wires connected to the brushes when the bike is running.

 

[gggGary]

On the regulator. It is common for chopper builders to just throw some regulator in there, that usually doesn't work. Most regulators work differently than an XS650 regulator. Even if the wires are the same colors, it's different internally.

Yes slap test is key on/off motor not running.

I can't see your bike but I'm guessing it's been rewired?

On a late model one brush should be hot from the battery through the key switch.
The other brush goes to the regulator,the regulator connects it to ground. The regulator opens and closes the circuit to control how much current the alternator puts out.

 

[retiredgentleman]

oh I forgot to mention... I'm getting no voltage readings directly from the bolts/wires connected to the brushes when the bike is running.

From your picture it looks like a combined rec/reg unit. They need to have 7 wires and I think I see about 7 wires.

You will have to do some detective work to find out why you have no voltage at the brushes. Refer to the "Tech" section............Electrical.............Wiring Diagrams. The wiring diagrams will show you how the wiring is connected.

 

[XSLeo]

The 79, is that fom your title or the date on the vin sticker on the steering head. The date on the sticker is the manufactured date, not the model year. Manufactring year is August to July. As in August 79 to July 80 are the 80 model year.
Yes, that's a combo reg/rec and it does have the TCI pickup on the stator.
On the voltage at the brushes, the regulator controls the voltage by turning the voltage off/on. When you read the brush voltage, that's an average voltage at the brushs.
On the earlier regs, the voltage was controlled before the brushes and rotor and went to ground at the brushes. On the later combo reg/rec the voltage was controled after the brushes and rotor.
On either one you will get the same voltage readings.
If you get no slap when testing, it means your rotor is not creating a magnetic feild. This can be caused by several things. The reg is bad, no voltage to the brown wire at the brushes and reg/rec or a bad rotor.
With the key on check voltages at the reg/rec and brushes and the rotor ohms.
Voltage should be within about .2 or .3 of battery voltage, rotor ohms about 5.
Leo

 

[Quinn]

Thanks Leo,

That's make a lot of sense! But after reading several posts, and now knowing that I need at least a new rotor maybe even a regulator/rectifier I think I'm going to go with a PMA & a Pamco ignition. I want to spend less time being a mechanic and more time in the wind.

 

[Greenbush]

Question, I bought an ElectroSport Rec/Reg plug in unit for this 79 2F(with points). The OEM rectifier was done. MY QUESTION, this ElectroSport solid state only has two wires on the Regulator plug, there's no Black(ground). No instructions came with the unit. Has anyone used one of these units and should I be concerned about the lack of the Black wire going into the new unit? Do I need to make a patch to the ground?

 

[jchrisk1]

If you mount it on your battery box, then run a ground wire between the regulator and the frame.

 

[Greenbush]

I was wondering if this new Solid State unit needed to be grounded by mounting. I've sent an email inquiry to the manufacturer. They advertise the unit as a plug-N-play unit. They didn't send any instructions with it at all nor state anywhere that it needs to be ground mounted. Couldn't it the whole unit be grounded through the Rectifier ground lead, eliminating the need for the one for the Regulator?
But to make sure I am going to make a small lead to ground.
THANK YOU Guh Guh GARY for taking so much time and effort with this great post.

 

[XSLeo]

On the 79 the reg had a ground wire. The rec had a ground wire, On the Electro sport being a combined unit they may have combined the two grounds into one. I would try it that way. If you get no charge then try running a wire.
You get a part with no instructions for using it. Another good reason not to buy an Electro Sport. There are much cheaper ways to fix the prolem you had and this site has all the know how to do it.
The rectifier can be fixed for about $7 worth of parts, a small piece of aluminum as a heat sink and a bit of soldering. A new reg for around $30, a bit of soldering.
Leo

 

[Greenbush]

On the 79 the reg had a ground wire. The rec had a ground wire, On the Electro sport being a combined unit they may have combined the two grounds into one. I would try it that way. If you get no charge then try running a wire.
You get a part with no instructions for using it. Another good reason not to buy an Electro Sport. There are much cheaper ways to fix the prolem you had and this site has all the know how to do it.
The rectifier can be fixed for about $7 worth of parts, a small piece of aluminum as a heat sink and a bit of soldering. A new reg for around $30, a bit of soldering.
Leo

Thanks Leo- I know I could've fixed it, but this bike is a minimized Street Tracker and the Reg/Rec unit helped with that. When testing the Rectifier there was no reading at all on any of the posts. They wouldn't even register on the meter. I think that someone had jump started the bike with a running car. I had found some melted leads in the harness near the Reg and Rec areas. I chose to go with the solid state for strength and longevity and minimizing space. I am getting no charge though. Got house work to do before I can chase it down. I'll post when I solve. Thanks guys.

 

[Greenbush]

Here is the response from ElectroSport about the lack of the ground on the Regulator terminal. Also his answer to testing their unit.

That extra regulator ground is not used on our part. All grounding with the esr350 goes through the rectifiers ground wire now.

Testing for their unit.

We can do two test, one to check the rectifier side and one for the regulator side.

Rectifier: Do a diode test. I have attached a pdf file to explain the test. Its pretty easy, pass or fail test.

Regulator side: Leave everything on the bike hooked up but the 2-wire regulator connection. Instead of plugging that in, take the two wires that connector would typically plug into on the wiring harness side and jumper them together. We have now directly connected your alternator to the battery, it will ALWAYS be powered on like this. CAUTION: Since it is always on, you can overcharge the battery if you rev up the motor, so dont leave it this way forever, its just for the test. With it jumpered, put a volt meter on the battery and watch the D/C voltage. Start the bike, you should see voltage int he high 12s or low 13s. Slowly rev up the motor, as the RPM climb you should see the voltage climb too. DO NOT exceed 14.6 volts at battery or youll pop a fuse or hurt something. What we've done is remove the regulator from the equation. If when the reg is removed you get power, and when its installed normal you do not, then we know the reg is the cause of the problem. If the bike still does not charge the battery after passing the diode test, and while the connection is jumper'ed (reg not hooked up) then we know it is not the reg/rect's fault.

 

[Jonb]

Hi folks, this is only my second post but I have read everything posted I can get my hands on and most I have read twice. This forum has been like a magic wand for me. Like most I had many issues withe my completely stock '82 special but because of all the people talking to each other and slowing down and letting your logic work for me my bike is a valve agj and an oil change away from going on the road with confidence.MY ADVICE TO THOSE LOOKING FOR ALL THE ANSWERS FROM A SIMPLE POST? THESE FOLKS THAT OFFER ADVISE AND KNOWLEDGE CAN ONLY HELP IF WE DO OUR PART.RRRREEEEAAAADDDD everything.Big props to the guys that responded to my first post and to everyone here. I look forward to many more posts and once I'm done I'll give a detailed list of the things I've done. Thanx,everyone. Jonb,1982 xs650 HS stocker

 

[Greenbush]

Well said Jonb-
Gary, what would cause a Alt Rotor to just fail? I get no registering of resistance across the slip rings at all. Nor from each ring to ground. No damage has happened on that part of the bike and it looks to be in great shape. But she's an empty Rotor. What would cause this? Jump starting with a running car or...? Now I got to purchase a rotor.
The ghosts on this bike just keep coming. I feel like Bill Murry in Ghost Busters. He did win in the end, right?

 

[gggGary]

Look carefully and wiggle where the wires come out of the coil windings and are soldered to tabs on the back of the slip ring. I have seen those wires broken off. Should be possible to re-solder but I didn't have any luck on the one I tried. Otherwise there could be a broken wire somewhere else in the windings. It's not the most common rotor failure mode but it happens. Yeah it's never just ONE thing on old bikes. It's more like a mystery novel with false clues and a cast of shady charecters causing you no end of grief. When she rumbles all the hard work and head scratching will disappear with the first "no issues" ride.

 

[oldfart1951]

Thanks for the great info....followed instructions and decided my problem was the brushes as predicted... replaced them and all is sort of well....voltage regulator is still suspect and the stator has seen better days I suspect....have decided to go with PMA kit...had a few questions....what do I do with the existing regulator and rectifier?...there's not much wiring on the PMA and I'm assuming I need to get rid of the old stuff....is there a list of what goes... Second question....not related except that it's electrical...I have something called a "reserve lighting device" -black box mounted near the battery...I can't find it on the wiring diagram...is it possible that it's a relay related to having daytime running lights? my lights come on after the engine starts whether the headlight switch is on or not...originally I thought there was a short...but after going over everything I can think off it's the only thing that makes sense....ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED

 

[gggGary]

The Reserve lighting device is designed to automatically switch headlight beams if one burns out. It can be removed and two wires on it's harness connector jumpered. What year is your bike? The 650 also has a relay controlled by a wire from the alternator so the head light does not light til after the engine starts. Once it lights it stays on until you shut off the key even when you stop the engine with the kill switch.

 

[oldfart1951]

Thanks for that....mine is a 77 xs650D.....and right now the light comes on without the headlight switch and goes out if you kill the motor....if I turn on the headlight switch it behaves as you described and on goes out with the key or the headlight switch...

 

[XSLeo]

They mandated the headlight be on all the time while riding. The first coulpe years they had a on/off switch but the reserve lighting unit bypassed the switch. On the later years, in 80 they did away with the switch.
Bypassing the reserve lighting unit as gggGary said will let the switch cintrol the headlight.
The wires you jumper are the yellow/blue to the blue/black. Just unplug the RLU and chuck it, jumper the wires with a short wire with the proper blade ends soldered on.
Leo

 

[weekendrider]

Gary, what would cause a Alt Rotor to just fail?

Not Gary but......
I've seen one or three of these and after looking decided,
Good ones still have intact yellow/amber colored covering(epoxy type?).
Bad ones or those going bad ALWAYS have black cooked cracked coverings.
I've decided it is mostly self inflicted due to running marginal batteries.
Seems a good battery is always one of the last purchase items.
Should be moved to the top. Right after the bike is purchased, maybe on the way home?

 

[oldfart1951]

Thanks XSLeo......answers a lot of questions.....one more though...what size is rotor nut?..want to buy proper puller and have a number to choose from(XSDirect is out of stock) but can buy from another source if I know the size.