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Expanded charging system guide (In progress)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by gggGary, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Splexin

    Splexin XS650 Addict

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    Is it possible to test the charging system off the bike? Example, no lights gauges etc just essentials (including battery to frame). Or do light grounds have to be connected?

    My system is passing every test and still not charging. So I'm trying to determine if it's a grounding or wiring issue.
     
  2. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    lighting circuit grounds don't need to be connected but the rotor has to be spinning inside the stator. Have you unplugged and tested the stator with an ohm meter?
     
  3. Splexin

    Splexin XS650 Addict

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    Brand new stator.......as well as everything else. I've been using my VOM so much today the battery in it is dead. :laugh:

    I'll link to my thread so I don't clutter up this one: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?p=215174
     
  4. wannarat

    wannarat wannarat

    gggGary,
    You are such a BIG help!! A few questions. I have an '82 Special, reeve it up and the headlight gets brighter so I'm starting out the tests in your guide. I had a battery tender on my battery for days and days and it reads only 10.5 VDC. I know. I know, that's STEP 1 !! Slap test slaps. But I confess I was impatient and I went on to STEP 5 (Ohms test on rotor) and my slip rings measured 1.4 Ohms with the brushes out. My question is is the Ohms test valid for testing rotor defects REGARDLESS of any other problem? I forgot to check the slip ring to a ground to see if I got less than infinity but my question is the same. Based on the "less than 5.0 Ohms" (between slip rings) and "not less than infinity" (from slip ring to ground) test, do those numbers verify that my rotor is bad?

    Thank you Gary for all your sharing of your expertise,
    Cheers,
    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  5. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    If the headlight gets brighter when you rev it and you know the battery is toast (sounds like a dead cell) Are you kick starting? I am going to have to guess there is something wrong with the ohms test or tester (meter). Getting good readings at low ohms is not all that easy. How did you get your meter probe on the inner slip ring? By the way it bears repeating that running with a bad battery has been the death of a LOT of motorcycle charging systems. It's like trying to drive your car with the rear brakes stuck on, everything has to work too hard to make it go and something will break under the load.
     
  6. Another excellent how to post gggGary! You put together the best repair manuals I have ever seen. And you manage to keep it simple enough so those who are not natural born gear heads can follow it.

    You are right about weak batteries killing charging systems , that is one simple thing that gets overlooked by a lot of riders. At least we have better batteries on the market these days. I got an AGM with my '78 and I will never go back to traditional acid filled .
     
  7. wannarat

    wannarat wannarat

    Yeah, Gary I've seen you say that - I will get a new battery as this one was on when I got it. May have a dead cell. But if I were to want to test a rotor would the ohms test tell if it were a good rotor? I got my test leads onto the slip rings by taking off the brush assembly from the stator face. That gave me room to firmly poke the VOM probes onto the slip rings very solidly. I measured the slip ring resistance several times and it showed 1.4 on the digital meter repeatedly. Thank you for your time,
    Cheers, Bruce

    Posted via Mobile
     
  8. weekendrider

    weekendrider Iron Horse cowboy Top Contributor

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    The ohms test between rings and resistance/reading of infinity on both rings(1 @ a time) to core will tell you if the rotor is good.
     
  9. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Well if the meter is right, reading 1.4 ohms, the rotor is toast. So now you gotta decide to fix what you got or go with a PMA. On an 82 you would have to change the ignition also to go PMA.
     
  10. wannarat

    wannarat wannarat

    Gary,
    Thanks for the info. Yes I think the Ohms test was correct. I will do the slip ring to infinity test just to have done the complete test. Like I wrote earlier, I took care to make a firm contact with the VOM probes multiple times to get the 1.4 Ohms readings.
    I've read about the PMA system and understand it is pretty foolproof. Is there an upside or downside to the PMA compared to having the traditional battery charging system?
    I can imagine that you have discussed this topic 'ad naseum' but since I'm writing to whom I consider an expert in the field I will take advantage of your expertise. I'm not that knowledgeable about a lot when it comes to motobikes but you seem to be able to explain it plainly.
    My Heritage Classic is new to me so I'm a real newbie!!
    I appreciate your time,
    Cheers, Bruce

    Posted via Mobile
     
  11. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Nah I'm no expert. I have never done a PMA conversion so I will leave any comments on that to others. The PMA will not work with your TCI ignition system so you would have to change that also. You would have to put in the combined Mikes XS Pamco PMA kit or equivalent. that will be a couple of scheckles.



    PMA/Pamco package 1980-84 XS650

    [​IMG]
    PMA/Pamco package 1980-84. Kit contains one 24-2662 PMA unit (200 Watt) and one 14-0912 Pamco unit. Save $17 as a kit.

    Permanent Magnet Alternator Kit (PMA) built specially for the Yamaha XS650.

    Replaces your old rotor that has failed or magnet that has weakened over time. Replaces regulator/rectifier with solid state electronics. Fixes the weak link in the XS650.

    Specifically built for the XS650. The PMA adapter bracket is hands down the easiest to use and best bracket available. It has the strongest rotor on the market to help with low RPM charging. The rotor hub is made with the correct keyway so there is no filing or guess work in getting the correct fit to the crankshaft. It has a plug and play voltage regulator with a battery side quick disconnect. Cannot be used with Yamaha (TCI) electronic ignition. They will need to use Pamco or Boyer Bransden Ignitions Systems.

    The kit includes a laser cut voltage regulator mounting bracket that bolts to the rear upper motor mount bolts. Everything you need including all new hardware and step by step instructions are included in the kit.

    Electronic Ignition Kit by Pamco, a proven reliable electronic trigger system
    that replaces the stock XS650 breaker point type or factory Tci ignition and
    is an easy set & forget system. This kit is for all 1980-84 North American model
    650's that originally came with factory Tci ignitions or for any 650 that is in
    need of all/most ignition system components. Fits: All 1970-84 XS650's.
    Kit Includes: Basic trigger assembly (XS#14-0900) Auto Advance Unit, Advance Rod assembly plus additional 3 pc. 14-0653 locating pin, Cam Shaft internal bushings(3),Dual output XS performance Ignition Coil (#17-6903), XS Performance Yellow Silicone Copper Core Plug Wire set(20" each)(#23-2906) and Two 5K NGK Spark Plug Caps (XS#23-3113).

    Provides increased reliability and serious (caution!) ignition spark to 75Kv.
    Part #24-2671
    $510.00 USD Kit




    Or test all your charging components so you know if it's just a rotor you need, a rewound rotor will run you about 130.00 I would strongly suggest rewound from a reputable winder as there are some fitment issues with "new rotors" and your TCI pickups. Note; you need an 80-83 rotor because it has the magnet for the ignition on it. Since I am a collector I tend to just go out to the shed and "find" replacement parts for my own bikes. LOL
     
  12. Billybob

    Billybob Billybob

    Hey guys have problem with charging. Have a 78 stock motor. New Mikes XS reg/rect. Went with the chopper wiring diagram to the T. Used the nylon screws on the brushes.If I do ground brushes blows fuse between battery and ignition. Also not charging the battery.Slap test doesnt work so possible bad rotor?
     
  13. Dennis

    Dennis XS650 Addict

    possibly
    Check the resistance between the rings on the roto to find out
     
  14. Billybob

    Billybob Billybob

    I will try that first...Thanks
     
  15. Quinn

    Quinn S-Tracker/74frame/79motor

    I was too frustrated with the stock system. Took the advice of another member and went with a PMA and Pamco setup and haven't looked back. Plus it allows you to ditch the battery if you want.
     
  16. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    The 70 to 79 years do not need nylon screws on the brushes. 70 to 79 years have the right (inner) brush grounded, and the regulator supplies a variable battery + voltage to the left (outer) brush. Do not ground brushes with a jumper wire, that test is for the 80 to 83 years.................blows fuse as you have found out.

    Yes,as mentioned, measure ohms between slip rings (remove both brushes). Make sure brushes are at least 3/8" long. Look for ohms to be 5 to 7 ohms. Also make sure there is very high resistance from either slip ring to the rotor metal frame.
     
  17. peanut

    peanut XS650 enthusiast & inveterate tinkerer Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

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    I can't see that this question got answered anywhere so the crank/rotor spigot is 24mm size with 1mm tpi (threads per inch) and you need a puller with an 'Internal ' thread , (most of the rotor pullers advertised have external threads )

    Hope that is helpful to anyone else looking for a generic puller that works on a XS650 rotor
     
  18. peanut

    peanut XS650 enthusiast & inveterate tinkerer Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

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    lots of folk seem to be having problems with Mikesxs supplied combined regulator/rectifiers . Sounds to me like they either don't include a decent fitting guide or the guide isn't easy to follow ??:wtf:

    Lots of threads around both on here and on the net saying they have charging problems or blown fuses and asking if its necessary to insulate the rotor brushes from the stator body (ie chassis earth )

    Its about time we got to the bottom of this :wink2:
     
  19. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    The nylon screws are only required if you use an 80 to 83 type rec/regulator with a 70 to 79 type alternator. The 80 to 83 type supplies battery+ on the right (inner brush). However the 70 to 79 right inner brush is grounded. Using nylon screws, removes the ground so that the battery+ will work.

    For my UK friends...............please insert "earth" where you see "ground"
     
    Okie likes this.
  20. peanut

    peanut XS650 enthusiast & inveterate tinkerer Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

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    thanks for that RT it sounds very simple which is why its odd that there are dozens of owners on several threads that have problems ?
    One of this forum's members recently had 3x regulators sent to him all of which apparently failed ?
     

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