Expanded charging system guide (In progress)

Could the rotor go bad because of the way the PO did things? That gets a good solid maybe for an answer.
The rotor goes bad from excessive heat build up over a long period of time. What the PO did probably wasn't run that way long. A few years maybe.
The regulator turn the power through the rotor on/off as needed to keep the battery at full charge. It cycles the rotor on/off thousands of time a minute.
With a good battery the on time is much less than the off time. The rotor can coolff some when in the off time. When the battery gets weak the on times increases. If the battery is weak enough the on time may be 100% instead of like 25% with a good battery, just a guess on that.
Anyway with the rotor on all the time it doesn't have much time to cool off. THe heat builds up, enough so the insulation on the wire in the windings starts to melt and burn. This discolors the coating used to seal and protect the windings. A new rotor the windings will have a nearly clear slightly yellow color. As the heat works on it it gets darker and can look black.
Once the insulation burns the wires can touch. This reduces the ohms. Less ohms means higher current flow. More current makes more heat. A visious circle. Eventually the rotor gets so bad it can't do it's job.
Yours at 2.4 isn't totally shot but very close. With every thing else good that rotor may at best break even. On my 81 the rotor read 1.5 ohms. It would charge just enough to turn the headlight on and run the bike awhile but after a short time the extra draw of thinmbgs like brake light, turn signals and such the battery would go dead. Recharge the battery and ride it a few more hours.
Not a good way to do things.There are places that rewind rotors. Call Gary at Custom Rewinds, darn I can't find the number. Google Custom Rewinds. The number is on the web site. Many have had great results with rewinds from there. I think the last time I checked the price was $125 or $150 plus shipping. If he has the puller when you call you can borrow it to pull t your rotor. Use the proper tool. Most anything else can damage the rotor. A damaged rotor can't be fixed.
When you test the voltage at brushes you need to check the battery voltage under the same conditions as when you test the brown wire. If you check battery voltage with the key off it will read higher than when the key is on. The draw from the ignition, any lights and such will lower the battery voltage. When you check battery voltage, key ofv it might read 13.2, turn the key on and it might read 12.7. Compare the brush voltage to the 12.7.
I might suggest for trsting hook up a bigger battery. That tiny 1.5 amp battery won't stay charged long enough to test much.
Have you tested the ohms on the stator wires? With the yellow wire unhooked, test the 3 whites from wire to wire as well as wires to ground.The exact ohms isn't as important as they all match. Some specs call for .9 ohms, others call for .46. As long as they all match and no continuity to ground the stator is fine.
On your meters try the leads from the new one on the old one. Bad leads cause worlds of trouble.
Leo
 
I think the 80 is TCI ignition also, if you have points ignition you don't need the later rotor with magnet. If you have TCI ignition and the black pick up coil mounted at 1 o-clock on your stator, you need the later rotor with pick up magnet
 
ok I have a question here to test the slip rings do I take off the entire left hand cover? and is there any fluid in that. I am no mechanic by any means and want to be sure before I go pulling crap off that nothing is going to get spilled out everywhere. my battery does not jump up to 14.5v when revving and the slap test is failing. has new mikesxs rec/reg unit, and new battery. I need to run my bike daily for work as it is only vehicle i have, so I am charging the battery a lot and I know this can lead to further issues. All grounds seem to be well done and i resanded them and greased up to be certain. the brushes are also new. I am hoping it was going to be a simple cheap fix but it seems I might have to replace the entire charging system here with a PMA/Pamco when I can get the money, but first I need to test the rotor properly.
 
No you can do it with just the small two screw cover. there is no oil under the big cover either and it's always wise to have a look see in the sprocket clutch release area anyways.

Might still be easy. It's a bit hard to get your probe on the inner ring with the stator on. A chunk of copper wire will go in through the brush hole and contact it. If you remove the bigger cover you can pull the stator, clean up the rings look at the stator wires where they pass behind the sprocket. disconnect the stator plug near the backbone and do the stator measurements too. When reinstalling the stator watch for the small locating pin at front bottom easy to misalign it.
 
Thanks gary I see from your photos how to align the pins. Should be simple enough. I took the bike for a long ride today and sometimes the signals flash sometimes they don't, headlamp always looked ok in the back of cars in front of me anyways. no sputtering and stuff and when i got back the battery showed it was still 11.5v which is 1 volt less than when i started so I know something is off in there. I will tear the cover off and pull the stator out this evening once it cools off a bit and then I can get a better idea of what is going on. You are right I cannot even get to the inner ring with the stator on. I am very thankful for this forum and all the advice I was just a simple computer geek and welder and in the last month I have learned so much i feel like i could damn near build one of these bikes from the ground up. I also verified the ground is good for the reg/rec unit so that pretty much leaves me with the keyswitch or rotor being bad or possible a stator wire crossing. It seems when I rev up the engine i actualy lose volts from 12 to 9 and I know that aint right so it sounds like a short right?
 
For what it's worth, I cured all my charging demons by going with the PMA from XSDirect (Canada's version of Mikes) I had struggled much of the end of last year trying to sort it out and was getting reasonable voltage from the original but it was somewhat variable. I put in in the PMA and rectifier over the winter and have been running beautifully all spring. It was an easy swap and seems to be working perfectly.:thumbsup:
 
yeah I am sure i am going to that but until i can get the money together i will just keep my battery on a charger between riding since i aint made of money and my wife and kid spend it sometimes quicker than i get it. im sure you can relate old fart. hehe.
 
Don't forget the simple things like a bad fuse box. The fuse holders frequently are rotten.
Have you tried grounding the brush with the green wire? Does that make it charge or get the slap test to work?
 
Excellent information on this website. Thanks to all who have contributed. Now my question. I have a 1978 XS650 barn find that Ive been working on for several months. Im currently working on the wiring. Purchased a new battery and taking one circuit at a time. Lights all work but no voltage to the brushes. Bike hasn't run in years and Im not at the point where I can start the motor. I have the original regulator and rectifier installed. Regulator has two brown wires, one yellow wire and one black wire. The wiring diagrams all show a green wire to the brushes but no such color wire coming from either my reg or rectifier. Should I just run a positive brown wire from the regulator to provide voltage to the brushes? Thanks again for the help.
 
Excellent information on this website. Thanks to all who have contributed. Now my question. I have a 1978 XS650 barn find that Ive been working on for several months. Im currently working on the wiring. Purchased a new battery and taking one circuit at a time. Lights all work but no voltage to the brushes. Bike hasn't run in years and Im not at the point where I can start the motor. I have the original regulator and rectifier installed. Regulator has two brown wires, one yellow wire and one black wire. The wiring diagrams all show a green wire to the brushes but no such color wire coming from either my reg or rectifier. Should I just run a positive brown wire from the regulator to provide voltage to the brushes? Thanks again for the help.

You don't have a clear understanding of how the charging system on your 1978 works. Look at the "Tech" section under "Some wiring diagrams".....................go down to the 4th diagram, as it shows how the wiring is done for 70 to 79 and for 80 to 83.

The wiring on your bike may have been molested by a PO. The stock 1978 regulator only has 3 wires, green, brown and black. The right inner brush is grounded, and the left outer brush receives a variable + voltage from the regulator.

I strongly suggest you throw the original stock rectifier and regulator in the garbage, or keep on a shelf for sentimental value. Buy a NOS automotive VR-115 regulator and either a new 3 phase rectifier, or buy 2 bridge rectifiers. Build you own rectifier on a heat sink. Lots of threads available on how to do this.
 
I think what you are looking at is not the regulator, I think you are looking at the safety relay.
They look similar but the reg has a large green tube along one edge. I'll post a pic showing it. The pic is of the regulator and rectifier. The reg is on the left and is mounted on the side of your battery box. The rectifier is mounted on the bottom of your battery box.
The reg has three wires, a brown, a green and a black. The rectifier has 5 wires, three whites, a red and a black wire.
Your safety relay works by controlling when the starter works, it stops the starter from working with the engine running.
Leo
 

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I do agree that the original regulator and rectifier should be removed and replaced with a new rec/reg unit. In doing so, it replaces a well outdated two piece system, to one small unit.
Check and double check wiring diagram!!! Make sure, undeniably that everything is as it is supposed to be. The PO of my bike had more extensions than Woopie Goldberg on the wiring harness. Cut and spliced everywhere and surprisingly it ran.
 
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Stock, 1980 or later, and the headlight doesn't light at all?
You may not have any charging, the headlight is controlled by a relay that is powered directly from the stator, no charging, the relay won't close, no headlight.

This is totally me. Where should I start now?

I'm very close to making the decesion to doing a full PMA install/swap, PAMCO ignition and a brand spanking new wiring harness.

Something about it seems easier (or at least more gratifying) than trying to hunt down the problem and then wondering when it might fail again. You can see where I started here.

Thanks in advance everyone.
 
Pardon my newb-ness here. Never really got into electrical before. After looking at a bunch of threads on here I am confused about the nylon screws. I have an 81 special ll so do I need to get nylon screws. All my wires are in good condition, put in a new harness, battery and the PO had the rotor and stator rebuilt (300 miles on rebuild). If I need the screws where do I get them? I have checked all of my grounds and they look good, will clean them up even more. Voltage regulator/rectifier is bad, so could that cause a grounding of the stator as well?

thanks
 
81 special ll, do I need to get nylon screws?

No you do not need nylon screws if the PO used a correct late model stator, if it has the black pick up coil on it it's the right one.

unplug the regulator check the stator again.
 
Another question then. When I checked the ac voltage at the stator end of the connector, without the reg grounded, I got no reading at all. Does that mean that the stator is bad or should I recheck with the reg grounded?
 
The rotor must be energized in order to get any A/C voltage out of the stator.

The following is an excerpt from this thread:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37641

And, this is an excerpt of XSLeo's post in this thread:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?p=360508#post360508

Leo has an understandable 'everyman' form of expression, so I've taken the liberty of cleaning it up as a simplified "Theory of Operation".

The regulator regulates voltage. The 14.5 is volts. Current is amps.
Diodes are a one way valve for electricity. The rectifier is a series of 6 diodes arranged so the AC can only flow one way, DC.
If you google rectifier you will get a better explanation.

(For 80-83 charging systems)
The brown wire supplies the current through the rotor to create the magnetism the rotor needs to have. On the rotor one end becomes the positive pole of the magnet, the other end negative. Looking at the side of the rotor you see triangular shaped pieces of steel. Some point one way, some the other. These are part of the rotor ends, this makes four of these positive and four negative. They alternate positive and negative (or North and South).

In the stator are 12 windings. These are arranged into three groups.
Now as the rotor turns a positive triangle passes one of these windings. As it passes it creates a positive current in the windings.
Then, a negative triangle passes the same winding. This creates a negative current flow in the winding.

This happens in all three groups of windings at the same time. Each group of windings are set up to be 120 degrees apart, so you get three sets of voltages coming out of the stator 120 degrees apart, thus the term three phase.
These voltages come out the three white wires. In three phase AC. These white wires are hooked up to the six diodes that convert the AC to DC.

The brown wire supplies the current flow through the rotor. The regulator controls the ground for the rotor. When grounded the current flows through the rotor. This creates the full output of the alternator. This full output charges the battery. When the battery reaches full charge it ungrounds the rotor.

Once you understand just how this works it demystifies the whole thing. Makes it simple.
Knowing how it works makes it easier to figure out what's wrong and fix it.
Leo
 
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