Possibly. Put a wrench on the rotor nut and see if you can rotate the engine...
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First XS650 Build, What to Look For
- Thread starter SlowMaintenance
- Start date
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Will do, over with the gf and kids tonight. Will try this when I get home tomorrow after work. Thank you for the suggestion.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
To confirm I'm understanding this correctly, the bike should be able to kick over in neutral without any hand on the clutch...correct? I would only have to pull the clutch in to kickstart the bike if it was in gear, right?
I'll be going back tonight to try to rotate the engine by the rotor nut. Counter clockwise.
I'll be going back tonight to try to rotate the engine by the rotor nut. Counter clockwise.
No, you can't kick start the bike at all with the clutch pulled it. The kicker connects to the crank through the clutch. Pull it in and you lose that connection. The kicker will just push through its stroke without doing anything.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Got it.
One other thing. I saw in that other post that the guy had to adjust the clutch at the lower adjustment point to get his advance unit to turn. Mine still has the chrome plug in it and as stupid as this sounds I can't understand how it comes out. Is it threaded? It won't turn, and I don't want to try to pry it out if it's actually got threads. Is there a tool used to spin this plug out?
One other thing. I saw in that other post that the guy had to adjust the clutch at the lower adjustment point to get his advance unit to turn. Mine still has the chrome plug in it and as stupid as this sounds I can't understand how it comes out. Is it threaded? It won't turn, and I don't want to try to pry it out if it's actually got threads. Is there a tool used to spin this plug out?
It just pops out. Look along its bottom edge and you'll see a depression and slot in the case that a screwdriver blade can be inserted into. I don't think that's your issue though. What you were reading was a case where the adjustment was set too tight and the clutch was disengaged, just like pulling the lever in. That would cause the kicker not to work and the engine not to turn as you pushed the kicker through.
From your pics, it appears that bike has sat for a while. From the rust, maybe it sat outside in the elements. If the exhaust was off and an exhaust valve is open, water could have entered the cylinder(s). The motor could very well be stuck or seized.
From your pics, it appears that bike has sat for a while. From the rust, maybe it sat outside in the elements. If the exhaust was off and an exhaust valve is open, water could have entered the cylinder(s). The motor could very well be stuck or seized.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Got it. So to save time later tonight, let me determine the next step in advance.
If I'm able to turn the rotor and thus, the engine is not seized then from there I'll retry to compression test. Though I have my doubts as I can stand my full weight 185lbs on that kicker arm and bounce with no effect. I can't imagine my arm on the socket wrench would be capable of applying more force than that, but perhaps the rotor will have more leverage than the kicker.
If I'm not able to turn it, what's the next step? I've heard a few different things. Coke/pb plaster/penetrating oil down the spark plug holes and let it sit overnight. Something about removing the valve covers and putting oil on them? I've got some PB blaster but it's the spray bottle kind, not sure how much should be put down the cylinders but I could hit the hardware store on my way home for some variant that comes in a liquid form if that's more ideal for this application.
Just looking to get a good sense of the seized engine procedure, as I've not encountered an engine in this state before and would like to get as much progress in tonight as I can. For those curious I've done quite a few searches on here already which come with a mixed bag of ideas from different people. There will always be differing opinions, but if someone has been here in this situation before, please feel free to chime in with what worked for you.
Thank you to all of you that have answered my questions to this point. What a great community you've got here.
If I'm able to turn the rotor and thus, the engine is not seized then from there I'll retry to compression test. Though I have my doubts as I can stand my full weight 185lbs on that kicker arm and bounce with no effect. I can't imagine my arm on the socket wrench would be capable of applying more force than that, but perhaps the rotor will have more leverage than the kicker.
If I'm not able to turn it, what's the next step? I've heard a few different things. Coke/pb plaster/penetrating oil down the spark plug holes and let it sit overnight. Something about removing the valve covers and putting oil on them? I've got some PB blaster but it's the spray bottle kind, not sure how much should be put down the cylinders but I could hit the hardware store on my way home for some variant that comes in a liquid form if that's more ideal for this application.
Just looking to get a good sense of the seized engine procedure, as I've not encountered an engine in this state before and would like to get as much progress in tonight as I can. For those curious I've done quite a few searches on here already which come with a mixed bag of ideas from different people. There will always be differing opinions, but if someone has been here in this situation before, please feel free to chime in with what worked for you.
Thank you to all of you that have answered my questions to this point. What a great community you've got here.
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Try using the word "waking" in the searchbox. Enjoy the reads...
Hey, SlowMaintenance, You were the guy that bought that thing? HAHAHA! I was actually thinking of offering the dude $300 for it - and going from there, lol! All I was looking for was an additional engine. Looks like you got the whole works to play with now. Good job! That's what i get for dragging my heels I guess.
My advice - which ain't worth much: Look for a front drum brake to match the rear. That way, you get the retro style I think you are looking for, and some added safety. Rear brake only is pretty dicey when its a drum-job.
My advice - which ain't worth much: Look for a front drum brake to match the rear. That way, you get the retro style I think you are looking for, and some added safety. Rear brake only is pretty dicey when its a drum-job.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Hahah I was actually wondering if anyone had even written to him to inquire about it. I didn't ask much beyond offering him the $200 cause I figured any bike is this condition was maintained poorly and would have some false story to explain why it sat etc...
This is my first XS though, so I may have bitten off a bit more than I can chew. Going to take it slowly though, winter is coming and I have nothing to do but fix this old thing.
Where in NH are you?
This is my first XS though, so I may have bitten off a bit more than I can chew. Going to take it slowly though, winter is coming and I have nothing to do but fix this old thing.
Where in NH are you?
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
A few updates. I removed the stator cover and attempted to turn the 17mm nut. While I was able to turn the nut, the rotor did not turn behind it. I was turn left or counterclockwise. The nut was just loosened and no movement took place.
Assuming that the engine was seized, I put some vinegar in the cylinders. Probably a shot worth in each. Inserted the spark plugs back into the holes, and put the stator cover back on.
In the mean time, I cleaned up the rear section of the frame that the PO had already cut. First pic is how I received the bike, second is after I made a new cut. Did this because the rods were attached to a plate which was rusted on and I couldn't get the bolts out.
Next, I went to remove the front brake caliper as I'll be removing the front brake entirely. The bottom nut and bolt came out easily. The bolt twisted out without issue. The top however, appears to be a stud, and instead of twist out like a bolt, the head was just a cap which came off separately. The bottom was different, the head was attached to the bolt as one unit. Is this normal? I can't seem to get this caliper off.
Lastly, I unplugged many of the connections from the rear of the bike, which are the absolute definition of a rat's nest wiring job. Can't imagine trying to salvage any of it, I'd rather rip the entire harness out and rewire when it comes time like I did with my Ironhead. Would there be any issue with just snipping these wires out (minus spark plug wires) and starting over? The end goal is to run PMA w/ Pamco and Sparx capacitor. Here's the harness now
At this point I'm going to let the vinegar sit, if I should add more let me know and I'll go back and do that. Figured that since that will take some time I may as well tidy up the wires and whatever else I can do in the mean time. Probably will end up pulling the engine soon to begin teardown. Let me know if there's something I should do before that.
Thanks!
Assuming that the engine was seized, I put some vinegar in the cylinders. Probably a shot worth in each. Inserted the spark plugs back into the holes, and put the stator cover back on.
In the mean time, I cleaned up the rear section of the frame that the PO had already cut. First pic is how I received the bike, second is after I made a new cut. Did this because the rods were attached to a plate which was rusted on and I couldn't get the bolts out.
Next, I went to remove the front brake caliper as I'll be removing the front brake entirely. The bottom nut and bolt came out easily. The bolt twisted out without issue. The top however, appears to be a stud, and instead of twist out like a bolt, the head was just a cap which came off separately. The bottom was different, the head was attached to the bolt as one unit. Is this normal? I can't seem to get this caliper off.
Lastly, I unplugged many of the connections from the rear of the bike, which are the absolute definition of a rat's nest wiring job. Can't imagine trying to salvage any of it, I'd rather rip the entire harness out and rewire when it comes time like I did with my Ironhead. Would there be any issue with just snipping these wires out (minus spark plug wires) and starting over? The end goal is to run PMA w/ Pamco and Sparx capacitor. Here's the harness now
At this point I'm going to let the vinegar sit, if I should add more let me know and I'll go back and do that. Figured that since that will take some time I may as well tidy up the wires and whatever else I can do in the mean time. Probably will end up pulling the engine soon to begin teardown. Let me know if there's something I should do before that.
Thanks!
Your front caliper is normal for that older style. It has a bolt and a stud for mounts. You'll need to pull the wheel and disc out, get them out of the way, before the caliper will come off.
I'm glad you've decided on a tear-down. You'll run across some who will just free up a stuck motor and run it. That's not a good idea. There is no doubt a ring of rust around the cylinder where the piston and rings are stuck. Running it would grind that all up and then it would pump all through your motor. Besides, just soaking and trying to turn the crank with a wrench many times isn't enough. You need to take the head off, put a block of wood on the piston tops, and take a BFH to them.
I'm glad you've decided on a tear-down. You'll run across some who will just free up a stuck motor and run it. That's not a good idea. There is no doubt a ring of rust around the cylinder where the piston and rings are stuck. Running it would grind that all up and then it would pump all through your motor. Besides, just soaking and trying to turn the crank with a wrench many times isn't enough. You need to take the head off, put a block of wood on the piston tops, and take a BFH to them.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Thanks for the tip! I've got a lift so I'll jack the bike up and get that wheel outta there tonight and the caliper off. Also would love to remove the entire wiring harness as it's a total mess, not to mention the goal is PMA Pamco and batteryless so I assume there is little reason to retain the stock harness. If I'm making a mistake, please feel free to chime in, otherwise I'll make that harness disappear this evening. This will make it a little easier to pull that engine out.
Also going to take the carbs off tonight and begin cleaning them as well. Another easy step as my Ironhead used a Mikuni and I'm very familiar with their design.
After that I'm ready to pull the motor and see what horrors lie beneath lol. Praying that a hone or overbore can solve the problem, but that feels like wishful thinking given the state of this bike.
Say I find a rust ring in there which can be bored or honed out...is there a reason to split the cases as well? The biggest thing I learned in my last build was leave it alone if it's not the source of the problem. Wondering if the bottom end really requires my attention or not. Unless it's necessary to dive in there to swap out the cam chain, in which case I would definitely split the cases.
Side note: If anybody is interested in any stock parts (speedo, tach, ignition unit, handlebar controls, levers, swingarm, center stand, footpegs etc...) please shoot me a pm. They'll all be coming off and I'd love for them to go to a good home or support someone's restoration project.
Also going to take the carbs off tonight and begin cleaning them as well. Another easy step as my Ironhead used a Mikuni and I'm very familiar with their design.
After that I'm ready to pull the motor and see what horrors lie beneath lol. Praying that a hone or overbore can solve the problem, but that feels like wishful thinking given the state of this bike.
Say I find a rust ring in there which can be bored or honed out...is there a reason to split the cases as well? The biggest thing I learned in my last build was leave it alone if it's not the source of the problem. Wondering if the bottom end really requires my attention or not. Unless it's necessary to dive in there to swap out the cam chain, in which case I would definitely split the cases.
Side note: If anybody is interested in any stock parts (speedo, tach, ignition unit, handlebar controls, levers, swingarm, center stand, footpegs etc...) please shoot me a pm. They'll all be coming off and I'd love for them to go to a good home or support someone's restoration project.
I try to pull old harnesses mostly intact because they are a valuable source of wire and connectors. Unwrap the harness and you may get enough wire and connectors to make the new one. The connectors crimped on by the factory are done very well. I try to use them when possible. There are several places that specialize in Jap bike electrics so you can get any of the replacement plugs, wire, wrap, etc. you may need .....
http://vintageconnections.com/
You may run across a "chopper" harness from one of the custom shops but that thing is a joke. It's like 6 wires and they charge something like $40 for it. You're much better off making your own.
http://vintageconnections.com/
You may run across a "chopper" harness from one of the custom shops but that thing is a joke. It's like 6 wires and they charge something like $40 for it. You're much better off making your own.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Good point. I'll definitely save the white connector pieces as they'll likely be useful when I'm reassembling the harness.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Dove back into it tonight. Threw it up on the jack so I could sort out that front brake caliper issue.
Took the front wheel off the bike and removed the caliper itself, speedo piece had to go back in to take up the appropriate space on the left side, but I'll be getting a speedo delete for that so I can remove it as well. Here's a shot with the rotor off.
Tomorrow night I'll take a hacksaw to those tabs and file them down flush with the fork legs as there won't be a front fender or brake (cue the advice from old timers saying don't do it lol)
Few more pics of what came off tonight, all is available if anyone is looking for these pieces. Just pm an offer.
These I may keep, I'll defer to your opinion on the performance of the stock coils. Again I'm looking to go PMA, Pamco, and capacitor. If these would work for that application, I see no reason to discard.
Bars and risers off
Such a slim bike isn't it? Perfect lanesplitter
Another shot of the engine with the crummy wiring harness removed. She's cleaning up slowly. Also if anyone is interested in the gauges up front, shoot me a pm. Looking for good homes lol.
I'm about ready to lay it down on it's side and lift the frame off the engine. I'll lay it down onto this bike lift so that I can then crank it up to a decent height for a safer lift. From there it's onto the work bench and into the engine I go. I'll keep the pics coming, thanks guys!
Took the front wheel off the bike and removed the caliper itself, speedo piece had to go back in to take up the appropriate space on the left side, but I'll be getting a speedo delete for that so I can remove it as well. Here's a shot with the rotor off.
Tomorrow night I'll take a hacksaw to those tabs and file them down flush with the fork legs as there won't be a front fender or brake (cue the advice from old timers saying don't do it lol)
Few more pics of what came off tonight, all is available if anyone is looking for these pieces. Just pm an offer.
These I may keep, I'll defer to your opinion on the performance of the stock coils. Again I'm looking to go PMA, Pamco, and capacitor. If these would work for that application, I see no reason to discard.
Bars and risers off
Such a slim bike isn't it? Perfect lanesplitter
Another shot of the engine with the crummy wiring harness removed. She's cleaning up slowly. Also if anyone is interested in the gauges up front, shoot me a pm. Looking for good homes lol.
I'm about ready to lay it down on it's side and lift the frame off the engine. I'll lay it down onto this bike lift so that I can then crank it up to a decent height for a safer lift. From there it's onto the work bench and into the engine I go. I'll keep the pics coming, thanks guys!
Looking good and bringing back memories. Hopefully the cylinders are stuck at mid height and not TDC or BDC; I used some WD40 Rust Release Penetrant Spray, a torch to heat the cylinders, a block of wood, and a BFH for unsticking my CB500T. Personally I recommend ripping down the bottom end while your at it for a few reasons: 1.) P.O. could have washed away a leak that was occurring from a seal at the lower end. 2.) It would really suck to complete your build to find out that you have some sort of gearing issue. 3.) It isn't all that hard to do, plus you'll know exactly what is going on under there. Also the peace of mind you'll by having new seals and new yamabond holding it all together.
Definitely keep them pictures coming!
Definitely keep them pictures coming!
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
To confirm, being that my XS650 is a 1976 and has the mechanical advance unit already, this kit is all that I need from Pamco...correct? And would only require the one coil, meaning I could discard my current coils.
https://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamah...igh-output-electronic-ignition-kit-e-advancer
There are just so many similar but yet different versions that it's hard to keep track. This one is listed as his personal favorite, and appears to be the same as above minus the e-advancer. My bike already has the mechanical advancer so I suppose what's the reason to spend that extra money.
https://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamaha-xs650-pamco-ultimate-high-output-ignition-system-73-84
https://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamah...igh-output-electronic-ignition-kit-e-advancer
There are just so many similar but yet different versions that it's hard to keep track. This one is listed as his personal favorite, and appears to be the same as above minus the e-advancer. My bike already has the mechanical advancer so I suppose what's the reason to spend that extra money.
https://www.mikesxs.net/parts/yamaha-xs650-pamco-ultimate-high-output-ignition-system-73-84
