Head gasket leak ?

XS650D

XS650 Junkie
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Noticed a small leak at the front right corner of engine (head gasket)
Did the baby power trick (worked great)
Its basically coming out were the deadbolt runs down thru the motorman that corner only.
Can I just loosen of and retorque that bolt only or is a full headbolt retorque required?
Also does it matter if motor hot, cold warm ect.Thx
ps: Im going with 30 lbs on the Acorn bolt or nut.I already have the copper washers in place
of the rubber originals
 
Yup - and for the newbies reading this: a “full head re-torque” is NOT a big deal and well within the capabilities of anyone who has the horses to own, operate and enjoy a 40+ year old motorcycle.

Basically, here is the process:
  1. Do this with the bike engine stone cold;
  2. Shut off the fuel petcocks and remove the fuel tank (one small bolt at the rear of the tank under the seat);
  3. Remove the spark plugs and gently stuff a small piece of clean rag into each spark plug hole;
  4. Remove the 4-piece upper engine mount bracket (two horizontal through-bolts in the head and two more through the frame - don’t touch the short vertical bolt that holds the two pieces of the left & right side brackets together - see the photo below);
  5. Locate the torque pattern diagram for your bike by searching the forum or your shop manual (you do have a shop manual don’t you?) - or simply refer to the figure below. Take my advice - print it out and have it handy. NOTE - #8 is the big acorn nut at the rear of the RH side of the head - the number label is missing in the torque diagram in the manual.
  6. Torque all of the fasteners (and there are no fewer than 15 of them) - and don’t forget the little one at the back near the crankcase vent box (#11) and the one that is beneath each spark plug (#9 and #10); BE SURE TO FOLLOW THE SPECIFIED TORQUE FOR EACH OF THE VARIOUS FASTENER SIZES;
  7. Reinstall the top engine mount bracket - and torque it properly;
  8. Reinstall the spark plugs and torque them;
  9. Reinstall the fuel tank and fuel lines;
  10. Start-up the bike, go for a ride and enjoy!
Once you get the hang of it, you can do all of this in an hour or so.

NOTE: because MamaYama used 3 different sized fasteners to secure the cylinder head, you will be swapping sockets and adjusting torque wrench settings quite a bit. The small bolt at the rear of the head (#11) will likely require a long “wobble” extension - but it can leak if not properly torqued so stick at it.

If all of this seems like a PITA, well, it kind of is, but this operation is not needed very often and the complex fastening scheme is one key reason why our bikes generally keep the oil INSIDE the engine rather than all over the outside of the engine and on the floor of your garage.

BTW - the other key reasons why our engines are generally oil-tight is that the engine has a horizontally split crankcase (instead of a vertically split design) and it uses long through-studs to secure the head and cylinder barrels rather than tiny short bolts like....ahem, some engines of an earlier generation built....just to the west of France. The reason the long through-studs work so much better than short bolts is rather complex, but it is related to the amount of axial pre-load (“stretch”) that can be imparted to them.

Cheers,

Pete
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Gee, Pete, you make it sound too easy--let's stir things up a tad!

Here's a simple procedure for a safe torque sequence on just about anything you're likely to put a wrench to. To tighten: opposite to opposite on inside fasteners first, then opposite to opposite on outside fasteners. To loosen: opposite to opposite, outside fasteners first.

Use a torque wrench that puts the reading you want somewhere in the middle 70% or so of its range; things get less accurate toward the extremes.

The small 8 mm. bolts on top only secure the rocker box. Guess it wouldn't hurt to do them if you do them right, but I leave them alone.

To lube or not to lube? Some of us don't, some of us (myself included) do. But either way, the fasteners you're working with should be removed for cleaning and/or lubrication. The time-honored procedure is to remove one fastener at a time, clean and/or lube threads, reinstall it to spec torque, then move on to the next fastener. If you feel the fastener stick at all, you're not getting an accurate torque reading. Back it out, repeat cleaning and/or lube, and go again.

Re. torque spec.: Mama Yama's numbers apply to lubricated fasteners. If you favor dry threads, you won't do any harm applying up to 30 ftlbs. to the big fasteners, but don't go higher than book (14 ftlbs.) on the 8 mm. fasteners. A quick search will turn up some good discussions on this.
 
The Torque specs I found (printed by 5T ) specked the 8 mil bolts to 16 ftlbs. I did the Acorns to 30 ftlbs
everything oil lubed. Good info on sticking fasteners Griz! In my manual it states to back of fastener 1/2 turn then retorque.
I figure if ive already backed it off may as well remove and add some oil to threads.I have read that its not a bad idea to
start bike let warm slightly then retorque again.Any need to reset valves, cam chain and timing ect after doing a head torque?
 
I only heat cycle the motor between torque checks if it's a new assembly, and then it's a matter of taking the bike down the road for full warmup and letting the motor cool completely first. But that's only one way to skin the cat. 16 ftlbs. won't do any harm; the main thing is to keep the pressure even and reasonable. When you're retorquing the head on a motor that's been in service, cam chain tension and valve lash don't usually move much if at all, but it doesn't take long to check: better safe than sorry!
 
OK - good words Grizld1 - but a couple of additional points:
  • the smaller fasteners are, indeed, for the "rocker-box" which carries all of the rocker arms, etc. and so strictly speaking, they do not relate directly to cylinder head sealing as do the 8 big "acorn" nuts - BUT - there are parts of those "rocker-boxes" which can leak too, so I like to re-torque everything.
  • on the matter of lubrication of fasteners: YES - they do need to be lubricated.
  • An dirty/un-lubricated fastener (particularly if the underside of the head of the fastener is not cleaned and lubed) will not utilize the applied torque to create what you REALLY want which is a vertical force that acts to squeeze the head and barrel assembly down onto the engine block.
To understand the reason for thread lubrication - you must accept that we do not really want to rotate the fastener at all. What we are actually trying to achieve is a vertical squeezing force to secure the cylinder head to the barrel and then press that assembly down onto the engine block. Unfortunately, the only way we can produce that squeezing force is to use the spiral threads of the cylinder head nuts, bolts and studs to translate a rotary "torque" into an axial (i.e. vertical) force. In effect, the applied wrench torque is a surrogate measurement of the squeezing force that we need to seal the engine against the combustion gases.

If you are having trouble with those concepts (and many engineering students do...), try this mental exercise:
  • imagine that the fastener is sticky in its threads and underside of the fastener head - due to rust, dirt, crap - on the fastener and the parts into which it is threaded - and you are using your torque wrench to tighten it;
  • now imagine that the degree of stickiness increases as you continue to tighten it;
  • now imagine that the fastener REALLY sticks firmly as you try to turn it with your torque wrench;
  • now imagine that some nasty previous owner actually WELDED the threads and head of the fastener to the cylinder head of the engine - and you come along with your torque wrench to torque that engine head back on;
How much of your applied torque - would be helping to tighten down the fastener to produce that vertical squeezing force you need to compress the head gasket and seal the combustion chambers of that engine....?

ANSWER: none of it.
The fastener is not turning at all because it is welded to the cylinder head - and since it is not turning, NO squeezing force is produced by your torque wrench - no matter how hard you turn it.

The wrench will "click" - confirming that you applied the correct amount of torque - but the engine will still leak because the head and barrel assembly is not being squeezed together and the gasket has not been compressed.

Grizld1 is correct in his note about how to clean and lubricate the threads (one at a time etc.) but I would suggest that once this has been done, it is not necessary to repeat that task if you are re-torquing the engine just a short time after it has been apart and the fasteners have been cleaned. I also agree with XS650D that backing the fastener off half a turn and then re-torquing it is a good practice to overcome any "stiction" that might have formed since the last time that fastener was torqued.

In any event, failing to clean and lubricate a fastener is NOT a good practice when assembling or servicing an engine.

Pete
 
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Nice explanation of torque as an indirect measure of pressure, Pete. There's more than one way to proceed, but here's what I do on a fresh assembly and why I do it. Not gonna get into the dry vs. lubed controversy. I've seen credible arguments and good results both ways. I use lube.

As you've pointed out, the top end is assembled on long studs that reach from the crankcase through the rocker box. That's four mating pieces: case, cylinders, head, and rocker box. Each piece is held in alignment with its neighbor(s) above and/or below with dowels. And the dowels stick.

I try to minimize the sticktion by removing and polishing the dowels, cleaning and lubing the holes, and using a few dabs of assembly lube. But sometimes things need time and help to settle. I let a freshly assembled motor sit overnight, then go around the head fasteners again. I've seen the large nuts give up as much as 6 ftlbs. I continue to let sit and reinspect until readings are stable. Then the motor goes in the frame. This may be a bit AR, but I inspect head fasteners after one full heat cycle, again after 100 miles, again after 1K miles, then seasonally.
 
Pete ,what is the torque spec on the top engine mounts , the 2 short bolts that go to frame and the 2 longer ones
that go to motor. Theres a number #6 on the bolt head on all 4 bolts.Mine have nylon nuts, no sure if that original or not.But I have just snugged them all to approx
20 lbs or so, they have never come loose, yet!
 
Pete ,what is the torque spec on the top engine mounts , the 2 short bolts that go to frame and the 2 longer ones
that go to motor. Mine have nylon nuts, no sure if that original or not.But I have just snugged them all to approx
20 lbs or so, they have never come loose, yet!

Hi D - I haven't got my manual here at the office and I don't recall to specified torque, but the info would be in there. These are, I think, 10mm dia. bolts, so whatever the standard torque in the Yamaha manual for 10mm nominal sized fasteners should do it.

One detail I'd like to bring forward: the nylock or metallic tab "capture" feature is really about ensuring the nuts don't come loose. That does not reduce the need to tighten them to the correct torque to ensure that you achieve sufficient preload (squeezing force) in the bolts so that the pieces of the upper mount and the frame stay anchored firmly together.

A bolted joint like the upper engine mount is fundamentally different from a cylinder head stud/bolt joint.
  • the stud joint is a tension-loaded situation where you are squeezing the parts together so that the combustion gases (and oil) inside cannot get out by spreading them apart;
  • a bolted joint like the upper engine mount is called a shear joint because you must squeeze the parts together tightly enough that friction between the parts keeps them from moving and slipping (or "shearing") relative to each other.
So - in a shear joint, you must clean and lubricate the fasteners themselves - BUT - also make sure that the parts being fastened (in this case, the upper engine mount brackets) are dry - so that you don't reduce the friction between them. In a tension-loaded joint, cleaning the parts is less important than cleaning and lubing the fasteners.

I did a talk on threaded fasteners for my local chapter of the Can. Vintage M/C Group (www.cvmg.ca) and made a .pdf of the slides which I am attaching to this post. The file shows how preload works and gives some data on how bolt preload can vary between lubricated versus non-lubricated fasteners.

Pete
 

Attachments

  • CVMG-Threaded_Fasteners - FRISE.pdf
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Yep, 650D, nylock nuts are OE. The top mount fasteners are 8 mm., the rest are 10 mm. The factory manual gives the sequence and torque specs for motor mounts. If you need a copy, you can download one free at www.biker.net thanks to Jean Akers' generosity.
 
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