Miss November XS2 tribute

[Raymond]

Have you checked out that Rare Earth Magnet topic were the ignition does not work well due to the magnet on the rotor going weak from age and being overwhelmed by the rotor's electromagnet field? If this is the issue then the bike should run nicely if you temporarily disconnect the rectifier/regulator unit. Apologies if this has already been done.

Blue Hylomar: I am not sure if anyone has mentioned how if this sealant is used in excess and gets squeezed into the engine oil it forms slimy bits that can block filters and fine filter mesh. It is then very hard to wash out of the fine mesh on the oil pump intake mesh.

Hi Paul, not too sure of you mean the magnets on the Boyer Bransden rotor/static plate? I have started to look at some of the threads that come up in a search on rare earth magnets - some relate to bikes with Yamaha pointless ignition but looking for possible implications if Boyer magnets have lost their field strength.

I'm not too worried about getting Hylomar inside the engine - only put a smear which will not even squeeze out when the joint is tightened up. And I was careful when I washed off the compound I put there the other day.

Re. not running, my Willing Assistant came into the garage to help with the strobe. She said that the bike sounded rough and she thought r/h cylinder not firing as well as l/h. Certainly, as I tried to rev and the bike just died, it sounded rough and felt as if maybe one cylinder dropped out.

There's a new ignition coil, HT leads and spark plugs. So if we assume they are all ok (I know, I already said assumption is the god parent of all foul ups) then I suppose that suggests carbs. Maybe a blockage on the r/h carb would lead to the symptoms?

I took carbs off, stripped and washed when I first had the bike and found the fuel tank was full of rust. But might be something to look at tomorrow. Pull the carbs off and wash them out again. Make sure carb cleaner can be sprayed right through the pilot system - sure I read that here somewhere?

Damn! Referring back to Paul's suggestion - I just realised, was having a problem with the strobe. Couple of times it lost it's flashing light when I revved to check the spark advance. I thought it was the strobe - but maybe the Boyer system is giving up when revved? DEFINITELY one to think about. Research . . .

 

[Mailman]

I’ve had some thoughts on the cam seals, the housings, the gasket, the o ring, the whole complicated mess. The following is how I approached it.

I did a lot of looking and test fitting of the housings with and without gaskets and I made a little discovery.

When you try and use the gasket and the o ring together, the oring sits on top of the gasket.

This creates too much thickness and pushes the seal too far out on the cam shaft. So Then I left the gasket off and just used the o ring, and I put gasket sealer around the machined surface on the head and rocker cover and installed the housing. Surprisingly the housing wouldn’t tighten up flush. When I pulled it back off there wasn’t even any gasket sealer touching the housing.
It seemed to need the gasket to fill that space.

So, I trimmed an o ring size piece from the gasket. This allows the o ring to fit down flush to the housing instead of laying on top of the gasket.

Now when the housing is installed it , the gasket and oring are in place and everything tightens up flush. The outer seal lip is still very close to the end of the cam shaft, one side being virtually flush with the end. I also coated the gasket with Hylomar.

I really can’t see any way to get these any closer than they are right now.
One other observation, the new seals are a double lip affair, with the inner lip having the compression spring, the outer seal appears to be a dust seal. The OEM seal that came out was a single lip seal with no dust lip. So even though , in the photo, it appears that the lip of the seal is very close to the end of the cam shaft, what you’re actually seeing is just the dust lip. The real sealing edge is behind it. This is just me experimenting , you won’t find any manual telling you to do what I’ve done.
My bike now has nearly 1000 miles on the motor, and is so far, leak free. I mentioned earlier in a post on my XS2 thread, that I thought I had a small seal leak, but it has ceased.

 

[Raymond]

Bob, thank you for a very clear and thought out approach to the pesky points housing.

I will adopt your suggestions next time the housing is taken off. I'm just annoyed that somewhat dodgy helicoiling might have compromised how tight I can make the three mounting screws. Not so worried about the screws holding the Boyer static plate - it's enough if that is clamped and does not move.

Incidentally, have just read Paul Sutton's excellent guide to initial fitting of the BB Kit00303 to XS650.

Have been thinking about whether the magnets on the Boyer rotor have lost field strength. Not having any history with the bike, I don't know how old the kit is. Loss of field strength might account for my bike's symptoms? On British bike forums - Norton, BSA - people have reported that weak BB magnets led to bike unable to rev. If that is because the BB box signal is breaking down, it accounts for why the strobe seems to lose its spark as I try to rev the engine.

The recommended test is to hang the rotor from its own magnets. But not clear if they mean hang the whole thing - magnets, rotor and threaded rod - or remove the rod somehow and just hang the magnets and rotor plate. Initial investigation - look at the magnets in place. Touching them with a screwdriver, it felt like there was hardly any pull. So, tried seeing how much I could hang from them.








A bit of experimentation showed that the heaviest thing I could just hang from either magnet is a 6 mm allen key. The least touch and it falls off. This weighs 16 grams or not quite 2/3 of an ounce. I doubt there is enough field strength to suspend the plate and magnet.

If anybody with a Boyer Bransden ignition feels like trying the same experiment, I'd be really interested in their results!

Will blast an email off to BB and ask their opinion.

The magnet rotor is probably available on UK ebay for about forty quid, fine if it solves the problem but a bit much just to do a substitution test . . .

 

[Paul Sutton]

5twins, I should have known and remembered, the Boyer has been mentioned several times - stick my post in the old fart thread because this is an example of how you know!.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Nice work Mailman. Reading your article leaves me wondering why there are two seals (oring+paper gasket). Could it be that the paper gasket is really the seal and the oring is just there to center the housing so the cam seal is centered around the shaft??

 

[Rasputin]

I use Boyer Branden on several of my bikes, like you I have wondered about the magnet strength, but haven’t had any problem with the rotor itself. However I did have a puzzle on my Triumph when it started cutting out at traffic lights and road junctions, if left a couple of minutes it would restart, run fine then conk out at the next light/Jcn or slow traffic. Took me about three weeks to sort as I was convinced the pilot circuit in the carb was at fault, in desperation I swapped the black box and hey presto.
I can’t speak highly enough about BB, ring them and speak to technical they are very helpful.
After this debacle the bike I pinched the amplifier box from was changed to a Wassell unit, like a copy of a Boyer only cheaper. Made by Vape in CZ
I don’t know who said this, “90% of ignition problems are carburettor, 90% of carb problems are ignition”.
PS once installed Helicoil repairs should be stronger than the original. If installed correctly.

 

[Rasputin]

Hi Paul, not too sure of you mean the magnets on the Boyer Bransden rotor/static plate? I have started to look at some of the threads that come up in a search on rare earth magnets - some relate to bikes with Yamaha pointless ignition but looking for possible implications if Boyer magnets have lost their field strength.

I'm not too worried about getting Hylomar inside the engine - only put a smear which will not even squeeze out when the joint is tightened up. And I was careful when I washed off the compound I put there the other day.

Re. not running, my Willing Assistant came into the garage to help with the strobe. She said that the bike sounded rough and she thought r/h cylinder not firing as well as l/h. Certainly, as I tried to rev and the bike just died, it sounded rough and felt as if maybe one cylinder dropped out.

There's a new ignition coil, HT leads and spark plugs. So if we assume they are all ok (I know, I already said assumption is the god parent of all foul ups) then I suppose that suggests carbs. Maybe a blockage on the r/h carb would lead to the symptoms?

I took carbs off, stripped and washed when I first had the bike and found the fuel tank was full of rust. But might be something to look at tomorrow. Pull the carbs off and wash them out again. Make sure carb cleaner can be sprayed right through the pilot system - sure I read that here somewhere?

Damn! Referring back to Paul's suggestion - I just realised, was having a problem with the strobe. Couple of times it lost it's flashing light when I revved to check the spark advance. I thought it was the strobe - but maybe the Boyer system is giving up when revved? DEFINITELY one to think about. Research . . .

Did you fit the BB ignition as a kit, ie ign unit amplifier box and coil? There are certain criteria for coil primary resistance when using the micro digital Blue or Red amplifier box.

 

[Raymond]

Did you fit the BB ignition as a kit, ie ign unit amplifier box and coil? There are certain criteria for coil primary resistance when using the micro digital Blue or Red amplifier box.

Hi Rasputin,

I didn't fit the Boyer, it was on the bike. I have zero history with the bike so no idea when it was fitted or how old it might be. Though having said that, I have replaced the coil. It had a Boyer MicroPower coil but during testing with my electrical guru Elliot we found that there was no spark on the right. One plug was dodgy, but even with a good plug there was no spark on the right. We felt this was either a dodgy HT lead or an internal fault in the coil, but replaced the lot because the leads are 'built in' with the MicroPower coil. We bought another Boyer MicroPower coil because they mention need for coil with correct primary resistance.

But earlier, was reading Paul's thread about fitting BB and he mentions advice from BB about keeping the black box well away from the coil and keeping the sender wires well away from the HT leads. Well, on my bike, the black box is fitted between the gussets (haha, I said gussets) behind the headstem. In other words, just above the coil. And the sender wires run parallel with the HT lead. Hmmm. Probably not ideal.

Have sent BB a query - they won't take technical queries on the phone these days - about magnets only just able to hold a 16 gram Allen key. Awaiting reply.

If I knew that the rotor or even the pickups or black box was the root of the problem, I would invest in a replacement. Either Boyer or something else.

 

[Jim]

In other words, just above the coil. And the sender wires run parallel with the HT lead. Hmmm. Probably not ideal.

For troubleshooting purposes you could loosen either the box or the coil and the wiring and put as much distance as possible between the ht leads, the box and the coil. Run it and see if that changes anything?

 

[Rasputin]

Hi Rasputin,

I didn't fit the Boyer, it was on the bike. I have zero history with the bike so no idea when it was fitted or how old it might be. Though having said that, I have replaced the coil. It had a Boyer MicroPower coil but during testing with my electrical guru Elliot we found that there was no spark on the right. One plug was dodgy, but even with a good plug there was no spark on the right. We felt this was either a dodgy HT lead or an internal fault in the coil, but replaced the lot because the leads are 'built in' with the MicroPower coil. We bought another Boyer MicroPower coil because they mention need for coil with correct primary resistance.

But earlier, was reading Paul's thread about fitting BB and he mentions advice from BB about keeping the black box well away from the coil and keeping the sender wires well away from the HT leads. Well, on my bike, the black box is fitted between the gussets (haha, I said gussets) behind the headstem. In other words, just above the coil. And the sender wires run parallel with the HT lead. Hmmm. Probably not ideal.

Have sent BB a query - they won't take technical queries on the phone these days - about magnets only just able to hold a 16 gram Allen key. Awaiting reply.

If I knew that the rotor or even the pickups or black box was the root of the problem, I would invest in a replacement. Either Boyer or something else.

Yes. Mine is in exactly the same place.

 

[GLJ]

Raymond
What color is the box on your Boyer? I put one one mine. It has a blue box. I mounted the box 6 inches from the coils and the box leads run somewhat close to the plug wires. Have had no ignition problem. Also my plug wires are replaceable as they were not on the coils when I received it.
This is the Boyer I am using.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS-...riorityMailPaddedFlatRateEnvelope!61021!US!-1

 

[Raymond]

Thank you All!

Jim, I had been thinking that if box and sender leads too close to oscillating magnetic field of coil and HT leads, it might permanently scramble the box? But you are suggesting it would just lead to interference and could test by temporarily re-locating them? Something to try if the problem persists. Wish there was a way to test that the black box still works correctly.

Rasputin, I assume location of your Boyer kit not causing running problems? Likewise, GLJ? So Boyer maybe just being cautious?

It does seem like a good place to fit the box - on my XS, it's neatly tucked in with some grey plastic foam.

GLJ, the kit number is the same as mine but they must vary the contents. One on my bike is possibly old. The instructions I downloaded don't match the kit on the bike. In particular, instructions say you need to cut supplied HT in half, strip back, fit brass connector and fit to the coil. But the coil and HT leads are one piece and can't be dismantled. Same on the one I bought as a replacement.

My current thinking (sorry) is to suspect the magnets on the wee rotor. If they have degraded, replacing them might put things right.

On the Lonely Ones site - a bunch of W800 enthusiasts - the gentleman who bought my Triumph 650 had problems with a BSA Lightning which would not rev. He took everything apart and was really at a loss but discovered in an idle moment that a screwdriver would not pick up the rotor. So he replaced with one from another Boyer-equipped bike in the garage and hey presto! Problem solved.

Still waiting to hear back from Boyer but going to have a look and see how much a rotor costs.

It's not onwards and upwards at the moment. But will get there.

 

[Raymond]

And look what just turned up in the post:



Bing Bong!

 

[gggGary]

And look what just turned up in the post:

View attachment 148550

Bing Bong!

Turn to the section on aftermarket ignitions...

 

[Rasputin]

Thank you All!

Jim, I had been thinking that if box and sender leads too close to oscillating magnetic field of coil and HT leads, it might permanently scramble the box? But you are suggesting it would just lead to interference and could test by temporarily re-locating them? Something to try if the problem persists. Wish there was a way to test that the black box still works correctly.

Rasputin, I assume location of your Boyer kit not causing running problems? Likewise, GLJ? So Boyer maybe just being cautious?

It does seem like a good place to fit the box - on my XS, it's neatly tucked in with some grey plastic foam.

GLJ, the kit number is the same as mine but they must vary the contents. One on my bike is possibly old. The instructions I downloaded don't match the kit on the bike. In particular, instructions say you need to cut supplied HT in half, strip back, fit brass connector and fit to the coil. But the coil and HT leads are one piece and can't be dismantled. Same on the one I bought as a replacement.

My current thinking (sorry) is to suspect the magnets on the wee rotor. If they have degraded, replacing them might put things right.

On the Lonely Ones site - a bunch of W800 enthusiasts - the gentleman who bought my Triumph 650 had problems with a BSA Lightning which would not rev. He took everything apart and was really at a loss but discovered in an idle moment that a screwdriver would not pick up the rotor. So he replaced with one from another Boyer-equipped bike in the garage and hey presto! Problem solved.

Still waiting to hear back from Boyer but going to have a look and see how much a rotor costs.

It's not onwards and upwards at the moment. But will get there.

No, no problems. Like yourself the ignition was on the bike when I bought it. It’s a micro digital system with a Red amplifier box, I have noticed as the blurb says, that the advance curve is just that, a curve, when I checked it with the strobe it’s very linear, the older systems are less refined and usually fully advanced between 1500&2000 rpm with very little advance above that.

 

[Raymond]

Thank you, Rasputin.

Rather than over-think this, decided to assume the digital box, coil, wiring etc all OK and not disturb. Have called Boyer and ordered a rotor. The very helpful lady even checked they had one in stock before promising it would be in the post today. £36.46 including postage.

We'll see how that goes.

 

[Raymond]

Since posting above, have reply from Boyer technical staff.

They say the magnets are not giving the problem.
Do I have 5000 ohm suppression caps fitted? (I don't know)
Have I checked there is a good engine earth?
Vibration induced bad connections can give rev limit problems.

Hmmm.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jim]

Any thoughts?

A few.... I tend to agree with 'em on the magnets. If they'll hold a 6mm allen... should be plenty strong enough to trigger.
RE: vibration.... have a read here #1320. It's a definite possibility.
Should be easy enough to measure the caps.
If your electric starter works OK, engine ground is probably fine.
If it were me, I'd go through all the associated connectors.... clean 'em... snug 'em up....

 

[5twins]

I see from your early pics that the bike came with red NGK plug caps. They should be labeled on the side as to which ones they are, but that label does rub off sometimes. The 5K ohm cap would be an LB05E or F .....

 

[MaxPete]

Since posting above, have reply from Boyer technical staff.

They say the magnets are not giving the problem.
Do I have 5000 ohm suppression caps fitted? (I don't know)
Have I checked there is a good engine earth?
Vibration induced bad connections can give rev limit problems.

Hmmm.

Any thoughts?

Yup, I agree. I have no experience with Boyers except that people who have them, really like them a lot. In my experience with magnets, they don’t simply stop being magnets except under fairly dire circumstances. My suspicion is some sort of other electrical issue as suggested by Jim (and I’d certainly check those plug caps too).

But really Raymond - vibrations - on an XS650?

Come now....be reasonable!