HELP starting bike with HHB PMA, Sparx capacitor, and Boyer electronic ignition

[ScottyShy]

I'm trying to run a very simple system on my 1983 XS650. No battery, just the Hugh's PMA, capacitor, Boyer ignition, and kick start only. Other than that i'm just running head light, tail/brake light and turn signals (and a fuse). I've wired those on a separate kill switch so they won't draw power while i'm trying to start her.

I can't seem to get my plugs to fire when kicking it with this set up. I've hooked up a stand alone battery to make sure my ignition and coil are working and they are. But when I try to kick start it with the battery hooked up a big POP happens and smoke comes up from the bottom of the bike. Any clue what this means? It sounds like a big backfire.

I can't tell where the smoke is coming from, but it seems to be coming from the bottom of the bike? Its not coming from the capacitor or coils, or the exhaust. I followed all the instructions on the Hugh's website, but I can't figure this one out.

 

[figure8]

Try this, unplug everything besides the ignition. Eliminate everything but the Boyer and a battery. If that works, add the PMA. This is critical here, check voltage at the battery at this point, both at idle and under load. You don't want much over 14v at 3500rpm. If all is well start adding components one at a time until the culprit reveals itself.

 

[jamesgs4]

maybe your ignition is not timed correctly?

 

[Punkskalar]

Sounds like ignition issues for sure.

Jump a battery to the bike, this will eliminate any issues you may have with low voltage - giving a constant 12V to run the ignition. Get the ignition dialed in, then you should be in a much better spot

PS - I just read that you have a Boyer ignition. They really really really do not like to operate at low voltage, and in my experience do not work well at all with a batteryless setup.

Definitely jump a battery into the system and see what you have.

Hugh

 

[barncat]

i usually don't try to diagnose bikes i haven't built, but i'm with jamesgs4 on this one. with the big pop and smoke it sounds like your timing is way off- firing earlier or later than it's supposed to.

you need to find a pretty accurate TDC with the piston stop method after putting a PMA on so you have a reference point.

you've probably already tried pulling both plugs and plugging them into their wires then lay them on the head and kick through in a dark room? try with the PMA setup first, if there is no spark you've got a problem with that system somewhere. then bypass PMA etc and check for good spark with battery only. if you have good strong spark with either method it's a timing problem- or even carburetion to complicate matters...

i don't know anything about Boyer ignitions. you do need a minimum 10,000uF capacitor though IMO to run w/o battery.

 

[Paulrxs650]

+1 with Punkskalar. Boyers need a battery to supply the minimum 11v for the box to function. Pop a battery in place of the cap just as a temporary rig and try again

 

[Signal]

Previous posters have given you good leads
Here is some more info

http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/tech6.htm

Is the battery you are using to jump with good? Have you tested it?
Are all your connections clean, tight and correct?

On a Triumph I fitted a Boyer to two wires were transposed in the loom causing the ignition to retard rather than advance with RPM.

Low voltages on Boyers can produce severe kickbacks.

 

[ScottyShy]

thanks for all the replies..

I've connected the fully charged battery that used to run my bike and i'm still getting the backfire. I'm sure my timing is incorrect, but i don't have a timing gun. The boyer ignition is relatively simple to set the timing though, you just twist the thing a bit. No matter where i twist it theres still a big backfire. Can the bike even run with the timing off?

Also, without the battery connected my i don't seem to be getting a spark at all just with the PMA. I know that my compression is a little low on the bike, could that be an issue? The bike ran all last year with the electric start and battery, but it would die on me all the time, that's why i went for the overhaul.

I initially ordered the pamco high output ignition, but when i realized i already had the boyer on there i sold it.

I'm running out of options to try at home, but i'm trying my hardest to no have to take it in and fork out a bunch of money at a shop...

 

[Signal]

No spark without the battery when kick starting is to be expected. PMA output increases with RPM. When kick starting the speed of the crank is too low to generate sufficient energy to power the ignition. The ignition draws its power from the battery at low RPM this is almost certainly why a Boyer won’t start with only a capacitor.

You write that you already had the Boyer on there was it running before you started. If it was, that eliminates a whole lot of red herrings.
Think what has changed and look there and follow Figure 8's advice.


To confirm your suspicion about the timing being out you need to recheck your installation.

If you have taken the stock alternator off to fit the PMA you will have removed the indexing marks that show the full advance mark that you need to use to static time the Boyer ignition.

If you have already transferred the timing marks as shown on Hugh’s install instructions check that they are correct.

If you haven’t transferred the timing marks you need to do so.

Either refit the stock rotor and stator to get the marks to enable you to static time the ignition or make your own on the PMA and case as Hugh describes.

When the static timing is set, fine adjustments to timing are made by adjusting the sensor plate (in the old points housing) using a timing light.


Don’t take it to a shop they probably won’t be able to help you and generally are not interested in old bikes. Use the money to buy a good timing light.

 

[barncat]

bike may start but will basically not function with timing very far off. your old setup was apparently not charging the battery if i understand you correctly. you should see over 14V at battery terminals when a bike is fired up and running properly.

a PMA usually takes 3-4 kicks to show spark to plugs in the dark room test. as mentioned, you need a big capacitor.

did you use a woodruff key when installing your new rotor? that's essential (so rotor can't change relative to crank) IMO to locating a consistent TDC mechanically with a piston stop tool or the less accurate wooden stick method. the timing mark spacing can be transferred from your OEM stator.

you may have something wired wrong. you may have a carb problem...

 

[ScottyShy]

So, after messing with my timing I was finally able to get the bike to start with the help of a battery. Once it is running i am able to unhook the battery and it keeps running.

I can't get the bike to start without the help of a battery. I know many people above mentioned problems with running Boyer ignition with no battery.

What are my options?

I saw an Instagram video from Hugh about a new ignition system that may be coming soon??

 

[buzzword]

So, after messing with my timing I was finally able to get the bike to start with the help of a battery. Once it is running i am able to unhook the battery and it keeps running.

I can't get the bike to start without the help of a battery. I know many people above mentioned problems with running Boyer ignition with no battery.

What are my options?

I saw an Instagram video from Hugh about a new ignition system that may be coming soon??

Hugh's system, when it comes out, seems like a compelling option.

In the absence of that being readily and immediately available, you could run a 4 cell Antigravity battery mounted in an inconspicuous location. If you're not relying on it to turn the starter motor, should be fine.